What level of English do our schools teach our youths?

Punctuation is my pet hate.
Example; "Woman without her man is nothing"
can be interpreted as;
1/ "Woman without her man, is nothing"
2/ "Woman, without her, man is nothing"
I suppose its a sexist thing where you put the commas, but those little commas sure can change a text!
Regards
Glen

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Originally Posted by Slunnie

Actually that is an interesting one. When I was studying English in my first year at uni, they commented on this phenominum. Apparently the big sentances and paragraphs have come about with the use of computers, just like this nokia text has come about with the introduction of SMS I suppose.

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It's probably true, but it's hard to understand why.

With a computer it is the easiest thing in the world to glance at the text when you have finished typing.

Then if it looks like a frighteningly big blob of text, you can quickly and easily go back and bung in a few carriage returns to separate the ideas.

It seems a lot of people don't bother.

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Originally Posted by Slunnie

Actually that is an interesting one. When I was studying English in my first year at uni, they commented on this phenominum. Apparently the big sentances and paragraphs have come about with the use of computers, just like this nokia text has come about with the introduction of SMS I suppose.

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If long paragraphs and sentences are supposes to be a phenomenon from the use of computers, it rather suggests that those claiming that are very ignorant of history and literature.

Word spaces and paragraphs did not become generally used until the introduction of relatively cheap paper to replace parchment in the middle ages, and very long sentences and paragraphs remained common long after that. For example, in Sir John Mandeville's "Voyages and Travailes", the first sentence lasts three pages of print. A somewhat later example, opening my facsimile copy of Hakluyt's Voyages (1581) at random shows two facing pages with no paragraph breaks.

More recently, a quick look at Beadell's "Too Long in the Bush" (compulsory reading for any Landrover fan) shows only two paragraph breaks on the first page.

With the precomputer examples, I find it very hard to blame the computer, although I would point out that popular 19th century authors such as Scott, Dickens, Twain etc mostly have short paragraphs.

Perhaps the computer can be blamed in the sense that it enables people whose writing you would never have previously seen, to become visible.

John

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Originally Posted by JDNSW

If long paragraphs and sentences are supposes to be a phenomenon from the use of computers, it rather suggests that those claiming that are very ignorant of history and literature.

Word spaces and paragraphs did not become generally used until the introduction of relatively cheap paper to replace parchment in the middle ages, and very long sentences and paragraphs remained common long after that. For example, in Sir John Mandeville's "Voyages and Travailes", the first sentence lasts three pages of print. A somewhat later example, opening my facsimile copy of Hakluyt's Voyages (1581) at random shows two facing pages with no paragraph breaks.

More recently, a quick look at Beadell's "Too Long in the Bush" (compulsory reading for any Landrover fan) shows only two paragraph breaks on the first page.

With the precomputer examples, I find it very hard to blame the computer, although I would point out that popular 19th century authors such as Scott, Dickens, Twain etc mostly have short paragraphs.

Perhaps the computer can be blamed in the sense that it enables people whose writing you would never have previously seen, to become visible.

John

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Agreed, and amazed you resisted using Joyce as an example.<shudder>

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Originally Posted by Tango51

Agreed, and amazed you resisted using Joyce as an example.<shudder>

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Didn't take much resisting - with over 5,000 books in the house, I have no copies of Joyce!


John

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Originally Posted by JDNSW

Didn't take much resisting - with over 5,000 books in the house, I have no copies of Joyce!


John

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lol, I am with you, brother!

"And the worst problem is not spelling or grammar, but the ability to say what you mean in a way that the reader sees the same meaning, without any ambiguity."

I think this is never really overcome. The great existentialist dilemma :)

It is a pity that the language with the most subtlety of meaning, and therefore has the greatest chance of bridging minds with clarity, is gradually being eroded for the sake of expedience.

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Originally Posted by JDNSW

If long paragraphs and sentences are supposed to be a phenomenon from the use of computers, it rather suggests that those claiming that are very ignorant of history and literature.

Word spaces and paragraphs did not become generally used until the introduction of relatively cheap paper to replace parchment in the middle ages, and very long sentences and paragraphs remained common long after that. For example, in Sir John Mandeville's "Voyages and Travailes", the first sentence lasts three pages of print. A somewhat later example, opening my facsimile copy of Hakluyt's Voyages (1581) at random shows two facing pages with no paragraph breaks.

More recently, a quick look at Beadell's "Too Long in the Bush" (compulsory reading for any Landrover fan) shows only two paragraph breaks on the first page.

With the precomputer examples, I find it very hard to blame the computer, although I would point out that popular 19th century authors such as Scott, Dickens, Twain etc mostly have short paragraphs.

Perhaps the computer can be blamed in the sense that it enables people whose writing you would never have previously seen, to become visible.

John

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Now that seems like a much more likely explanation.

You're certainly right about long paragraphs having been popular with some authors in the past.
I had a look at my facsimile copy of "Australia Twice Traversed" (1889) by Ernest Giles (probably the most literate of Australia's explorers) and four of the first five examples I picked at random had paragraphs of over three pages.
At least they were not all one sentence.

Someone may have fallen into the common trap of assuming that just because two things happened at the same time, that one must have caused the other.
Or in this case that something became apparent at the same time as a particular development, so that development must have caused it.

I agree with your evaluation of Beadell's books.

I hadn't heard of Hakluyt's Voyages so I tried Googling him
Have I got this right?
Mandeville was probably a fictitious name. Some of Hakluy'st collected stories of travellers were extracted from Mandevilles work?

They are available from ebooks @adelaide and Project Gutenberg. Not as good as having a facsimile copy, but I have started to read them nevertheless.

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Originally Posted by procrastination inc

"And the worst problem is not spelling or grammar, but the ability to say what you mean in a way that the reader sees the same meaning, without any ambiguity."

I think this is never really overcome. The great existentialist dilemma :)

It is a pity that the language with the most subtlety of meaning, and therefore has the greatest chance of bridging minds with clarity, is gradually being eroded for the sake of expedience.

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Sometimes I think that is what worries me most about what is happening to the language; the loss of clarity and the subtle shades of meaning available to those who take the trouble to use the language appropriately.

One simple example. Few people now know when to use "less" and "fewer".
So does, "That section of highway had less serious accidents this year", mean there were not as many accidents or the accidents were not as bad?

If people used the language correctly, ".... fewer serious accidents ..." would mean one thing and, " .... less serious accidents ..." would mean something different.

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Originally Posted by vnx205

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I hadn't heard of Hakluyt's Voyages so I tried Googling him
Have I got this right?
Mandeville was probably a fictitious name. Some of Hakluy'st collected stories of travellers were extracted from Mandevilles work?.....

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Mandeville may or may not have been fictitious, but certainly a lot of the travels he recorded were, although it is possible that he actually did some of the travels, and inflated his adventures by uncritically including accounts from others, including Herodotus.

Hakluyt compiled an anthology of travels and voyages by the English, and as far as possible he used original accounts by the actual travellers. He may have regarded Mandeville's account as factual, but some of the other accounts he used for the pre-Tudor period (such as Geoffrey of Monmouth) he must have known were probably fiction. As far as I know he was the first historian to publish the actual accounts of the people involved in the expeditions rather than retelling them.

I have a 1965 facsimile copy of his 1589 (this is the correct date not the one I gave earlier - I checked) publication, and a 1927 edition of the final version, published in 1598-1600.

John