Cheap Chainsaw

Well said Craig,
a chainsaw has a chain break a 9"grinder does not.
Im not exactly sure of the legislation but I think OH&S regs require another person 2 foot the ladder if it is over 6` but I stand 2 be corrected;).Oooops Im hijacking my own thread:eek:.
Cheers Dean.

take it from another angle - the more of these really cheap tools that are out there, the less likely it is that people will call a tradie... and the more false confidence some people who shouldn't do this kind of DIY stuff have!

From personal experience, three times I can recall having a chainsaw kick back on me... three times it's been my fault (every time it was undercutting a fallen tree to remove pressure and getting the saw jammed) each time I could have chopped off or seriously damaged a leg... everytime I was also doing the right thing (according to training).

do you guys really think that chaps/earmuffs/eye sheilds etc are a joke? I dunno if you are takin the pi$$ or not, but there is no way you can compare a hammer, stanley knife or electric drill to a chainsaw... 9 inch (or bigger) angle grinders, especially the petrol powered ones belong with chain saws in my opinion... inherently they are not safe, but they are often the best (sometimes only) tool for the job.

If I have a limb to remove from a tree, I use a bush saw or a good axe. If I have a paddock full of storm damage to clean up, it's axe and chainsaw time. Horses for courses I say :)

I am not purporting untrained use of any tool, but what level of training and by whom and or tickets is different. As I said where do you draw the line there are many tools that can do similar or more damage :
Motor vehicles (no licence required to buy these).
Off road motor cycles, buggies, quads etc (and yes my kids have these).
9" grinders the biggest industrial tool injury for some time.
Any grinder.
Augers.
Bailers.
Tractors with PTOs unguarded.
Lathes.
Sandblasting equipment.
Plasma cutters.
Hydraulic presses.
Bandsaws.
Reciprocating saws.
Cement cutters.
Circular saws.
Split rims.
Large tyre fitting equipment.
and the list could go on and on. All these could do similar or worse than a chainsaw and do. Chainsaw injuries are horrific and I would implore anyone using one to at least understand the dynamics of the equipment and relevant safety equipment before buying one, but restricting sales is not the answer either. The chainsaw is an easy target. We have all seen the results when things go wrong, but I have some rather gross pics of Auger, conveyor accidents etc as well.
And as for some tradesman, well when some overcharge like they do what do you expect. I was quoted $3500 to remove 4 gum trees (2 large approx 15 metres and 2 med approx 7-8 metres) and I would be responsible to dispose of the wood and debris. Needless to say we learned to live with the leaves and nuts.
$8500 to build a patio, car port that we built for less than $2000 including all steel and power tools.

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Originally Posted by EchiDna

take it from another angle - the more of these really cheap tools that are out there, the less likely it is that people will call a tradie... and the more false confidence some people who shouldn't do this kind of DIY stuff have!

From personal experience, three times I can recall having a chainsaw kick back on me... three times it's been my fault (every time it was undercutting a fallen tree to remove pressure and getting the saw jammed) each time I could have chopped off or seriously damaged a leg... everytime I was also doing the right thing (according to training).

do you guys really think that chaps/earmuffs/eye sheilds etc are a joke? I dunno if you are takin the pi$$ or not, but there is no way you can compare a hammer, stanley knife or electric drill to a chainsaw... 9 inch (or bigger) angle grinders, especially the petrol powered ones belong with chain saws in my opinion... inherently they are not safe, but they are often the best (sometimes only) tool for the job.

If I have a limb to remove from a tree, I use a bush saw or a good axe. If I have a paddock full of storm damage to clean up, it's axe and chainsaw time. Horses for courses I say :)

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I am not directly comparing a hammer or stanley trimmer with a chainsaw. But these are basic handtools and cause far more serious injuries than chainsaws as a whole. Yes they are more widely used, but we seem to accept the injuries and fatalities caused by hand tools and their use. A femoral bleed is on of the more serious injuries you could have and is regarded as immediately life threatening.
It would be interesting to see the chainsaw accident and fatality stats compared to other tools.

Let's not forget the good old victa lawnmower. When I did my first aid course in Brisbane, the instructor said that every weekend they would refer to one of the wards as the victa ward, because they had so many lawnmower injuries.

I agree, chainsaws are bloody dangerous. Personally though, I feel less-safe when using my circular saw with a diamond blade (concrete cutting), or my nail gun, than my Husky 357XP.

My previous saw was a Homelite from the 60's with no chain brake. I was my first saw, and I used it heaps. A couple of uncles of mine are farmers and I have seen how to use a saw properly, but have had no formal training in using them.

I think most hospitals had a victa ward! I know Royal Melbourne had one too... it just shows what misuse can happen when power machinery and people get together!

I think that these days there is emphasis on litagation protection and thus working practices become bloated with safety equipment and courses which protect the occupational user. This is well and good and how it should be, but as a few people have pointed out, the home users have no such oversight and a proportion of these guys are going to get themselves into trouble due to gross lack of knowledge.

However, this is going to happen with any device you can sell to people. The potential for misuse can't be built out of a device..

I've not bought one of these GMC saws that started all of this. However, every chainsaw I have bought has come with at least a safety book, which I have read ( mostly to get tech specs from though ) and they all show basic cuts and how to operate it.

I DO know that that GMC saw is a copy of a Zenoah Komatsu G2500 arborists saw, which I DO have. That saw has almost zero kickback, tonnes of grunt and is nice and light.

I would say that those three features probably make it one of the safest saws on the market for an inexperienced member of the public to pick up and use out of the box with no training except the manual.

You can't save people from their stupidity, it's darwin's laws of evolution here...

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Originally Posted by CraigE

I am not purporting untrained use of any tool, but what level of training and by whom and or tickets is different. As I said where do you draw the line there are many tools that can do similar or more damage :
Motor vehicles (no licence required to buy these).
Off road motor cycles, buggies, quads etc (and yes my kids have these).
9" grinders the biggest industrial tool injury for some time. Most would be sold to a workshop and you would be normally taught how to use it by someone more experienced than yourself if you hadnt used one before.

If thats not the case and someone bought one for home with no idea how to use it, the operators manual states loud and clear not to remove sheilds and guards and not to fight the tool so that it does kick and spit out bits of blade or turn on the user.

Im not saying at all that they are safe and they also should probably be on the list of no no's for the never done it before crowd.
Any grinder.
Augers.
Bailers. I dont know any farmer or comercial operator who would allow someone with no training to jump on $100,000 worth of tractor and bailer these days, maybe in the day of the old McCormick square bailers behind a MF135 but even then you would be at least run through what to do.
Tractors with PTOs unguarded. Your not legaly allowed to use an unguarded PTO these days, and even farms need to have Workcover insurance so Workcover would crucify the operator and the owner of the machine if you got caught regardless of if there was an accident or not
Lathes. The cheapest metal working lathe around is about $1500 so I'd very much doubt that unless you knew how to use one you wouldnt go and buy one
Sandblasting equipment. Im still trying to workout how you can hurt yourself with a sandblaster as the only one I have used has been in a box with built in gloves and if you opened the lid it would shut down but Im sure your thinking of a different set up
Plasma cutters.You would have to be stupid to hurt yourself with a plasma, note to self, dont put hand where hot thing is going or has been, I think that is a primal sort of thought process that we all possess
Hydraulic presses.Yes these are dangerous but as I said before, the cheap ones are still a couple of hundred bucks so if you didnt know how to use it you wouldnt buy one as it would be cheaper to hire one and they then show you how to use it
Bandsaws.Nasty evil things and I put them in the same basket as chainsaws but again I would hazard a guess that you wouldnt pick one up for $100 anywhere
Reciprocating saws.Again too expensive for the average joe
Cement cutters.Again, too expensive for the average joe
Circular saws.
Split rims.I'd lve to see someone who had no idea of what they were doing get one apart let alone put it back together, most people who get injured with splits know what they are doing but get complacent
Large tyre fitting equipment.Again, your not going to have one of these in your shed unless you know how to use it
and the list could go on and on. All these could do similar or worse than a chainsaw and do. Chainsaw injuries are horrific and I would implore anyone using one to at least understand the dynamics of the equipment and relevant safety equipment before buying one, but restricting sales is not the answer either. The chainsaw is an easy target. We have all seen the results when things go wrong, but I have some rather gross pics of Auger, conveyor accidents etc as well.
And as for some tradesman, well when some overcharge like they do what do you expect. I was quoted $3500 to remove 4 gum trees (2 large approx 15 metres and 2 med approx 7-8 metres) and I would be responsible to dispose of the wood and debris. Needless to say we learned to live with the leaves and nuts.All businesses need to have public liability insurance and for a tree feller/arbourist it is (depending on area, company and claims) anywhere between $20k and $50k a year so the prices have gone up in recent years due to this.

It will also be more if the trees are in close proximity to a house, fence or on a hillside due to the extra work involved in climbing it to drop it instead of just dropping it on the ground and cutting it up.

$3500 is a pretty good price if they were to be climbed, I would be thinking around $4k+ for 4 trees but if they could all be dropped into a clear area on flatish ground then probably around $2500 to $3k would be reasonable.
$8500 to build a patio, car port that we built for less than $2000 including all steel and power tools.

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Originally Posted by CraigE

I am not directly comparing a hammer or stanley trimmer with a chainsaw. But these are basic handtools and cause far more serious injuries than chainsaws as a whole. Yes they are more widely used, but we seem to accept the injuries and fatalities caused by hand tools and their use. A femoral bleed is on of the more serious injuries you could have and is regarded as immediately life threatening.
It would be interesting to see the chainsaw accident and fatality stats compared to other tools.

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Statistics lie, if anything no stats should be relied appon but just used as referance but in saying that, you would have to use a few variables.

Injuries with people who were trained and experienced
Injuries with people who were not trained and experienced
Injuries with people who were not using the saw for what it was made for.

Then

Kickback injuries
Limb cuts (arms/legs) from droped saws
Limb cuts from starting saws
Injuries from fallen/rolling timber

Then

Compare to your stanley knife and hammer injuries in which because there are much more people using them there would be way more to start with but then you would have to work out the percentage of the population uses stanley knives and hammers in comparison to chainsaws to get an accurate account.

Then

Compare numbers, form an opinion based on what you translated the nubers to say while I'll base my opinion on what I think the numbers said and then we will sit back and still dissagree.

Your comparing apples and oranges, 2 different types of tools and completly differnet uses and users so there isnt any comparison.

Were talking about $100 chainsaws being sold to people who wont nessesarilly use them safely.

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Were talking about $100 chainsaws being sold to people who wont nessesarilly use them safely.

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dont think it really matters what the cost of the chainsaw is;)

even a $1000 saw will be sold to people who dont necessary know how to use them safely................

but thats still not the shops fault if they hurt themselves

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Originally Posted by mcrover

Statistics lie, if anything no stats should be relied appon but just used as referance but in saying that, you would have to use a few variables.

Injuries with people who were trained and experienced
Injuries with people who were not trained and experienced
Injuries with people who were not using the saw for what it was made for.

Then

Kickback injuries
Limb cuts (arms/legs) from droped saws
Limb cuts from starting saws
Injuries from fallen/rolling timber

Then

Compare to your stanley knife and hammer injuries in which because there are much more people using them there would be way more to start with but then you would have to work out the percentage of the population uses stanley knives and hammers in comparison to chainsaws to get an accurate account.

Then

Compare numbers, form an opinion based on what you translated the nubers to say while I'll base my opinion on what I think the numbers said and then we will sit back and still dissagree.

Your comparing apples and oranges, 2 different types of tools and completly differnet uses and users so there isnt any comparison.

Were talking about $100 chainsaws being sold to people who wont nessesarilly use them safely.

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You are absolutely right about statistics. They can be interpreted or skewed any which way. However a chainsaw is no more inherently dangerous than any other tool if used correctly and for its intended purpose. Lots of people I know have may of these tools and more in their workshops these days.
You obviously need to get out to a few more farms and properties. Some of the stuff I have seen would scare you endless. Unprotected PTOs, Augers, bailers, headers etc with guards off. Work safe have guidelines in place for farmers but most of these are vague and non descript. Now the mines regs and act, now theres a piece of writing.
This basis is how most litigation starts. An inept person buying a product and then blaming the manufacturer or retailer for the result of their ineptness and stupidity. There are dangers with all equipment, some are just a little worse than others and the result of an incident can be horrific. I would urge you to find the stats on chainsaw deaths in Australia and compare them to deaths from utility type knives. Something as simple as a utility knife can and has been lethal a lot more often than a chain saw.
Reciprocating saws, 9" grinders and the like are a dime a dozen at the momment and start at around $100. As for $1500 for a lathe being a barrier I would think not. I know of many people with metal lathes even a couple with $50k industrial lathes.
Though I do take what you are saying that the cheapness of once expensive tools has opened the market to a whole new audience. I do not see however how socio economic financial position makes any one else more inept than another.
There are many many tradesmen I have seen using equipment in grossly inappropriate ways and people immediately after passing training courses use equipment inappropriately.

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Originally Posted by hiline

dont think it really matters what the cost of the chainsaw is;)

even a $1000 saw will be sold to people who dont necessary know how to use them safely................

but thats still not the shops fault if they hurt themselves

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Yes Ray, we know you bought a chainsaw, now go out and buy some PPE before you hurt yourself or someone else..........

You still dont get it, everyone can afford a $100 chainsaw but the problem is if your on a budget your not then going to go and add earmuffs, goggles and chaps of safety pants which is another couple of hundred dollars over your $100 chainsaw.

If your paying $1000 for a saw, you are more than likely aware that you need all the other stuff as well if you dont have it already.

We all have seen the photo's of you at Stones with a saw in shorts and t shirt with no goggles or muffs doing your best impression of someone who doesnt like all his limbs so we all then know that you dont really care much for PPE and more than likely wouldnt ware it unless forced to but the truth is, these things shouldnt be this cheap so that inexperienced and daft people will buy them and clog up our hospitals.

I find it irresponsible but you will hold the complete opposite opinion just because thats what you do so go on Ray, reply in your most disagreeable way, makes for plenty of hits to this thread.