Thread: Police shoot 15yo boy in Melbourne

How many times does it have to be said? An officer was in imminent danger of being stabbed and his coworkers fired to protect him. They didn't hold a conference first and decide to all fire so they could gun him down in cold blood. This event would have happened in a split second, all officers firing simultaneously using their training, and shot until the threat stopped.

The longest baton in use here is 26", most are 21". For an officer to strike an offender with an edged weapon he'd have to have a death wish. In the time he/she got close enough to the perp to deliver the blow, the criminal would most probably have stabbed them.

In my training we were taught to use escalating/de-escalating force one level higher than that of the offender:
Offender resists - Officer uses open hand techniques (holds etc)
Offender closes fists - Officer uses closed hand (strike) or filled hand (baton)
Offender with blunt weapon - Officer uses filled hand (OC + baton)
Offender with edged weapon - Officer uses filled hand (OC) if possible or deadly force (firearm)

If at any stage the offender stops resisting we de-escalate the use use of force.

And yes I've served my country, both in the Army and in the emergency services. I have the knowledge, training and experience to make an educated comment here.

I do however apologise for being a little harsh earlier, I was affected by alcohol when I posted that. It should be no excuse however, and I will attempt to not bur up next time someone writes stuff like that.

Originally Posted by RobHay

This is all very sad...for all concerned. My information is that the lad had an argument at home and armed himself with knives. Relatives then disarmed him and he fled the house and went to the shopping centre where he stole the two cleavers, he apparently bunged on a bit of a turn there and slashed up a few boxes. Staff rang the Police who confronted the boy. He was given ample opportunities to comply with directions. He then cornered one of the Police and was gased....several times. He was then shot in the limbs (believe leg) but when he continued his assault upon the Officer he was 'put down'. I have no problems with this. For all of those who say that the Police should have tackled him...all I have to say is "You Try it". It is all very well to be wise in hindsight and make suggestions as what should have happened........But we were not there and none of us have any idea as to how events were escalating.

This so called supremist group he was alledged to belong to the 'Southern Cross Soldiers' is in fact a 'gaming' clan for on-line war gaming.

My heart goes out to the parents of the lad and to the Officers involved and their families

....and just to put a more human face to the event ...this is the lad that died

I know we,re all entitled to an opinion but non of us were ACTUALLY there.
This is a sad day for the boys parents, a sad day for the police & a sad day for society. Nobody wanted this to happen , but it is REALITY
Dean.

IMHO well done to the cops involved.
Also i just noticed this on the herald sun website

"People who knew Tyler well said the teen, armed with cleavers, would have carried out his threat to kill police.

His behaviour had spiralled downward into alcohol and violence since he fell under the influence of a white racist gang, the Southern Cross Soldiers.

"The officers who shot him most definitely had good reason . . . If they didn't do what they did, he wouldn't have stopped," a former friend said."

This so called supremist group he was alledged to belong to the 'Southern Cross Soldiers' is in fact a 'gaming' clan for on-line war gaming.

Correct there is...there is also the Southern Cross Soldiers who are a nationalist organisation and having had a look at their Myspace page.......they certainly dont represent myself as an Australian.....there is heaps on info on them....they wear hoodies and masks and seem to be pretty anti just about anything....and the language on their made even my toes curl.....a disgrace that this is our youth, and more of a disgrace are the parents that let their children get involved

Regards

Stevo

Hmm
Violence is always sad.
I own a nightclub and see it all the time.
Have trained in Wing chun for many years and believe me, NO-ONE wins a fight.
A verbal discussion can all so soon escalate and the best plan is to run.

In this day and age, knifes, guns and any foreign object can become a weapon.

Police are trained to shoot at the largest area possible. Handguns are tricky and not very accurate. Short barrel etc.
They are trained to shoot twice and sometimes reasonable force is a handgun for a police officer since we don't know what the other person was on(drugs).

Its sad to loose a person a such a young age as well, where did life start going wrong?
Depressed, mentally unstable to some degree, we just dont know.
A theory is just that, a theory.

So many people will be affected by this sad death, many family members and friends.

I feel for them all.

Suddenly puts life back into perspective and our little problems of a window winder being faulty just fades in insignificance.

Life must go on.

That didn;t take long for opinions and tempers to flare up,
lots of opinions from the non cops, opinions from the friends of cops, those still in the cops not saying too much about being in but letting on what the procedures are. Some ex army folk adding to that.


For my 10c worth, I'll admit it openly, most know, i was in the cops for 26 yrs. Its not a secret.I was completly operational not a desk riding paper shuffler, I worked alone for over 12 years, I was a dog handler, as well as an operational safety instructor.
But until you have walked the walk and gone through the differing scenarios that one has to face, I believe its very hard for most to offer any sort of opinion on could have been a better solution to what happened, you just were not there.
I have personally been chased around a room by a knife wielding fool/wife beater, nearly stabbed by a knife armed lunatic and nearly shot in an aggravated domestic as well as being in countless tactical doorknocks. Anyone who thinks your thoughts remain calm and clear at times of obvious severe stress are seriously deluded and do not know what you are talking about. Like anything it takes time to formulate and mentally prepare yourself for something bad, time as in many actual repetitions over years.
There is a significant difference between policing training and millitary training and the two should not be confused as being alike.
Todays training is a lot better than it used to be, but no training scenario can prepare you for the real event, where the offender does something that you cannot replicate in training.
The Tactical Options model is great when properly applied, much better than the use of force model. But for how long should you realistically keep applying the tactical options model, in a constantly mobile situation. Its a bit different to contain and negotiate.
When I did the SKD ( spontaneous knife defence) instructors course the key was no matter what you did , prepare your self mentally that you will be cut! because each disarming technique came with a degree of risk. Now lets see 'get cut', where would it be ok , where it wouldn;t hurt much , the carotid, no too high the femoral, the brachial, no you'd bleed to death. I would prefer the option that means I go home at the end of each shift with no unwanted holes or injuries.

Using overseas examples is unwarranted and not productive, why, because we are in Australia where the police are armed, and have been for years. Using the brits as a example of best practice is not realistic. The old shoot them in the leg trick, the movie favourite,is contrary to using the centre of the seen mass.

In conclusion the offender in the story was that ,an offender,age is irrelevent, given many options it seems to comply with the officers requests. While the death may have been unavoidable in the perfect scenario, it appears the event was less than perfect, as I said earlier the real world is unpredicatable. The decision to fire comes with many factors you have to consider before you pull the trigger, all to be done in a split second.
Ask yourselves this would you have preferred the officers or some innocent person in the vicinity get a cleaver to the body instead of the deceased.


john

Originally Posted by 953

I know we,re all entitled to an opinion but non of us were ACTUALLY there.
This is a sad day for the boys parents, a sad day for the police & a sad day for society. Nobody wanted this to happen , but it is REALITY
Dean.

exactly right Dean, thats why we as a society rely on due process in that i'm sure this will be investigated throroughly through the correct channels.

But then again, it's party time for all the little worms.





Unfortunately, I have no compassion.