HR help - Stupid CV's

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Originally Posted by WhiteD3

Not wanting to hijack the thread, but I disagree Brian. I've hired some 40 techs and engineers over the last few years and I'm far happier with an older bloke. They are more loyal, more experienced, and far less trouble overall. The only real issue I've with this age group (as far as hiring tradesman is concerned) is computer skills.

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You may employ this way, but I can assure you that most do not. In times of high unemployment, the older worker, the unattractive, the ethnics, etc. get the rough end of the pineapple. The CES used to tell the over 40's, no matter what their qualifications and experience, to take any job they are offered as that may be the only one they will get. The over 55's were virtually considered to be out of the job market in the high unemployment era of the early 90's. You were obviously employing highly qualified and motivated people in boom times when plenty of jobs were available.

Most employment agencies have had little to do with the grubbier end of unemployment. The unskilled, the mature age workers, aboriginals, recently released convicts, the illiterate and semi-literate, immigrants with poor to nearly non-existent English, the poorly educated, the long term unemployed were the responsibility of the CES before the Howard government closed it down in one of their first acts in government. The private sector agencies have done little with these people other than use them as milk cows. One prominent CEO (owner) of a major job service provider referred to these job seekers as "dead ****s" and didn't want to list them until she realised how much money was to be made servicing them without actually having to place them.

One 50 year old former manager showed me a letter from one of Australia's biggest mining companies. He had applied for a position that he fitted like a glove. He got a nice standard letter back thanking him for his interest, large field of high quality applicants etc. & here are your references returned. They gave themselves away by returning his CV upon which someone had put a light pencil ring around his date of birth.

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Originally Posted by Tusker

Well as an employer for the last 20 yrs or so, and not knowing the industry/occupation, my feedback would be

- Forget the spin. And the patronising about "working for your esteemed company.." etc. I don't want to employ a BS artist.

- But do include something about you as a person, your values. You have to give them an idea of how you'll fit in.

- It has to present perfectly. Grammar, punctuation, don't misspell the their name. This is supposed to be your best effort.

- How to stand out from the rest? This is the hard one. Its not silly fonts, mug shots or waxy paper, but it is content. For me anyway.

- One way of standing out is do some homework on the prospective employer. Look up their website, and explain how your skill set is a good fit with what they do. Very few candidates do.

The CV is the only thing I've got to extract a short list from say 300 applicants. Its no fun. Scattergun, generic, photocopied applications are the first to go. The BS ones go. Those with significant gaps go. Those that don't give me anything about them as an individual go. Likely transport problems go. And so on.

Lastly - and this is important for us - I hire largely on attitude, we can always teach the function. The other way around doesn't work. Focussing on technical strengths only can be a disaster.

Regards
Max P

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This is good advice. Particularly the last comment. Attitude is everything. If you have the right attitude to the job and can make it come thru in your CV and covering letter, you're halfway there. Telling about yourself and your own interests can help here.

Then comes technical skills. If the job requires certain skills/ quals that you must have, then tell about them.

Adesthemex's comment about brevity is really important. When you have to sift thru fifty cvs you love it when somebody tells his story effectively on one A4 page.

One of the hardest things about writing anything is keeping it brief and to the point. Anyone can generate words. The trick is to say the same thing in less words. When you've made up your CV, go back thru it and reduce the number of words. Find ways to say the same thing with less words. Think about each sentence. Is it necessary? Do I need those words? If I rephrase that will it work better?

Keeping it brief and to the point will often get you to the next stage of the employment process. Remember that when you write an application you are not trying to get a job. All you are doing is trying to get an interview. The purpose of the CV and covering letter is to give enough of the right information to get you thru to the interview. At the interview you can work on getting the job.

I reckon you should be able to tell the guts of your story on one A4 sheet. The exercise of achieving that will make your CV the most direct and interesting one they have come across and will give you a good chance at getting the interview.

All the best

Willem

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Originally Posted by Numpty's Missus

I find the whole employment market quite hard to understand these days

Our daughter who is a teacher, with no permanent position yet after 2 yrs out of Uni, seems to have no problem picking up short term contracts.

Our son, who is unskilled, has to go the full gambit of employment agencies, newspaper ads etc etc......NOTHING has ever come out of the employment agencies....

I'd HATE to be looking for a job in todays system even if I was young. It would be even harder as an older person.

I'm lucky to have a skill qualification where I can be guaranteed NEVER to be without some employment

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It's called supply and demand. Every state is crying out for teachers and most schools both private and public engage recruiters specific to education to broker employment contracts. "Contracts" is the key word these days. It depends on the industry, but for the most part in so called "professional" jobs, contract is becoming the norm to start off with. I know for my employer they paid me twice as much on contract before making me permanent. Less overheads, 1 weeks notice, no warinings etc, no super, it can work for both parties very well.

Unfortunately, most unskilled workers are looking for work in small business that still aren't very computer literate, or are just starting to transform their business to be more up-to-date and are still using traditional means of hiring.

But it will not last. Unless unskilled workers embrace and learn how to use technology to their advantage when looking for work, they will struggle.

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Originally Posted by Brian Hjelm

One 50 year old former manager showed me a letter from one of Australia's biggest mining companies. He had applied for a position that he fitted like a glove. He got a nice standard letter back thanking him for his interest, large field of high quality applicants etc. & here are your references returned. Thet gave themselves away by returning his CV upon which someone had put a light pencil ring around his date of birth.

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This is true. Leaving out your date of birth can be a way around it - although it can also give it away. 'If he hasn't put his date of birth in then he's obviously older' But a friend of mine who at the time was in his early sixties applied for a job at a factory as a section manager and didn't put his date of birth in. When he was asked about that at the interview he said 'Would I have got the interview if you knew how old I was?' the answer was 'No. Probably not'. He got the job and was very well regarded in the company.

Willem

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Originally Posted by willem

This is true. Leaving out your date of birth can be a way around it - although it can also give it away. 'If he hasn't put his date of birth in then he's obviously older' But a friend of mine who at the time was in his early sixties applied for a job at a factory as a section manager and didn't put his date of birth in. When he was asked about that at the interview he said 'Would I have got the interview if you knew how old I was?' the answer was 'No. Probably not'. He got the job and was very well regarded in the company.

Willem

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Another of my clients told me he had stopped mentioning his age or date of birth and was called in for an interview to get the comment "Christ, how old are you?"

Another guy told a prospective employer he was 56 and was told that the employer had a compulsory retirement age of 55. Another major Australian corporation. I wonder how they apply this nowadays when legally they can not have a mandatory retirement age.

The government recognised the problems faced by older workers by introducing in the nineties, the Mature Age Allowance. This was paid through the Newstart system for long term unemployed over 60. It took away the obligation to actively seek work, recognising that in most cases this was a fruitless and often embarassing endeavour.

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Originally Posted by Numpty's Missus

I find the whole employment market quite hard to understand these days

Our daughter who is a teacher, with no permanent position yet after 2 yrs out of Uni, seems to have no problem picking up short term contracts.

Our son, who is unskilled, has to go the full gambit of employment agencies, newspaper ads etc etc......NOTHING has ever come out of the employment agencies....

I'd HATE to be looking for a job in todays system even if I was young. It would be even harder as an older person.

I'm lucky to have a skill qualification where I can be guaranteed NEVER to be without some employment

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NM, plenty of teacher graduates in that boat. You wonder why governments and educator academics bleat about a teacher shortage when they won't employ the existing ones. Swags of teacher graduates working as clerks in the public service.

Yet a friend, long term unemployed former public servant was sent off by his job service provider to full time study at Griffith Uni to become a teacher. He would have graduated in the normal course of events after his 55th. birthday. He had left school aged 16. He had difficulties from day 1 and left the course after the fifth semester. I found out that this was the only way the provider had left to make some money out of him (other than placing him in long term employment) so they cold-heartedly send him off to a course he was unlikely to finish, and if he did would never have got a job in his new profession.

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Originally Posted by Numpty's Missus

I can tell you for fact....Qld Health do not pay anymore for contact nurses than they do permanent. I did 2 years on short term contracts before I got a permanent position....short term as in 4-6weeks.....not what I call "satisfactory" employment :(

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Well I can't speak for Qld Nurses, but here in VIC some friends who are nurses have spoken to me about doing contract. The younger grad's are getting contracts at graduate market rate, the more experience Nurses are getting way better money by taking 6 or 12 month contracts and NOT being a member of the union. Seems it makes a big difference.

Every industry is going to vary I guess, but on the whole it's coming down more to the individual and what you are able to negotiate.

As with what Utemad said earlier is fairly right for Qld Govt jobs....I'm often one of those on the interview panel and at the moment with the GFC and job uncertainties Govt jobs are looked on favourably for stability so lots of applications for each vacancy.:(

Having said that though the one thing that does amaze me is the lack of people or bother to find out who the primary panel member is and contact them.

This works well on 2 fronts...
1) you can suss out a bit more about the position giving you the chance to customise your application better and
2) its gets your name and persona across so that if this call goes well they will recognise your name when you application turns up on their desk.

Good luck and happy hunting....

If I was applying for jobs today, and someone wanted to know my age, gender, religion, marital status, etc. I would be asking them why do they need to know. The anti-discrimination legislation forbids discrimination for these and other reasons so the employer has no need to know, and should not know or use this information in the decision making process.

The Company Secretary of a large heavy equipment company once commented that if employers had to pay maternity leave then he would only employ females over 50. This, he said, had a double bonus as the employee would retire before being eligible for long service leave.

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Originally Posted by Brian Hjelm

If I was applying for jobs today, and someone wanted to know my age, gender, religion, marital status, etc. I would be asking them why do they need to know. The anti-discrimination legislation forbids discrimination for these and other reasons so the employer has no need to know, and should not know or use this information in the decision making process.

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Because it helps build a picture about you. What makes you tick, whether you'll fit in with everyone else.

Most candidates volunteer this stuff in my experience. Gaps & withheld information are fatal. The assumption has to be you're hiding something.

And I've never had it happen, but if anyone quoted anti-discrimination laws at me in an interview, well I doubt it would be a fruitful working relationship.

Regards
Max P