Thread: A train driver's plea ( safety video )

Originally Posted by JDNSW

Because you keep talking about fault - this is not the same as a factor! Talk about semantics!

It is just as unarguable, for example, that if the crossing were replaced by a bridge, or if the traffic management by lights etc were such that there was never a queue there, there would be no accident. One crossing I have used in Melbourne recently is a case in point - there is a set of lights just beyond crossing, and with slow moving traffic it is very easy to have the lights change such that cars can very easily get caught. OK, they should not enter the crossing if the way through is not clear, but with bumper to bumper traffic moving at 15kph it is very easy to see it happening. Proper linker of traffic lights and crossing lights could prevent this to a large extent, and I know of other crossings in Melbourne where this is done.

As another example, there have been a number of level crossing accidents where roads run alongside railways for some distance, and then cross with two sharp corners and a level crossing. It has long been known that this is a recipe for crossing accidents, regardless of signs and flashing lights.

This is exactly my point, but you keep talking about a single fault causing the accident! Again in this post "In that case, the single cause of a collision is the driver that entered the level crossing."

I don't think we are really that far apart except for your insistence that accidents can have a single cause and that you look for a faults rather than contributing factors. And that you insist on restricted meanings for words! Certainly, I am not about to disagree with you about the need to obey the law and use common sense with level crossings.

John

John,
I appreciate the points you have made in this thread. Generally you are correct and I agree there are usually multiple factors involved in all accidents, but and its a big but in most cases there is one major contributing factor and even without all the others the incident would most likely still occur. None of any other factors mean anything at all if you are not paying due care.
Like one of our intersections here that has a rail crossing 4 odd car length back from the T junction. Everyone blames the trains crossing when infact that is irrelevant, then they blame the intersection itself again irrelevant if you are paying due care and driving lawfully as required. This intersection for example could be better, but it is not and was designed for a lot less traffic. Upgrades would be good but are not a priority as there is actually not a lot wrong with the intersection. We had 3 accidents at this intersection in one day due to inattention and not giving way (one very serious and we were first on scene and I spent 3hrs in the car looking after the trapped young fella, as he was pinned bad took us that long to get him out safely). 5 cars written off and 2 damaged, 4 people taken to hospital and one expected to spend 6 months in rehab. All because of complacency and one major contributing factor. I relate it tback to the swiss cheese theory.
We often see stories in the paper here where people claim to have been held up at crossings for 15 minutes. What BS, the longest we actually tie up a crossing is 3mins 30 seconds (obviously excepting failures, but that is rare on a crossing). People are so self absorbed in their life and their agendas they just can not be patient.

Personally having driven trains & my Dad did so for 40+ years. We got to see all manners of morons not caring about just ripping across the crossings no matter what. We also got to see MANY failed crossings.
One of the things that is supposed to happen is the driver MUST sound his horn when approaching level crossings.
I know in his time dad hit a Backhoe (wasn't supposed to be working there, was parked on the line operating),
2 cars ( a drunk nurse had crashed onto the line in 1, can't rmember the other), a Mack truck ( didn't look at the crossing, bet he does now)
& a moron who walked onto the track & just sat down & waited for the train!!!!!!!
I was lucky enough to of only ever hit live stock.

Train drivers have to be ever vigilant for all this sort of stuff & have to wear the consequences of the actions of Richard craniums!!!!!

Originally Posted by CraigE

John,
I appreciate the points you have made in this thread. Generally you are correct and I agree there are usually multiple factors involved in all accidents, but and its a big but in most cases there is one major contributing factor and even without all the others the incident would most likely still occur. None of any other factors mean anything at all if you are not paying due care.
Like one of our intersections here that has a rail crossing 4 odd car length back from the T junction. Everyone blames the trains crossing when infact that is irrelevant, then they blame the intersection itself again irrelevant if you are paying due care and driving lawfully as required. This intersection for example could be better, but it is not and was designed for a lot less traffic. Upgrades would be good but are not a priority as there is actually not a lot wrong with the intersection. We had 3 accidents at this intersection in one day due to inattention and not giving way (one very serious and we were first on scene and I spent 3hrs in the car looking after the trapped young fella, as he was pinned bad took us that long to get him out safely). 5 cars written off and 2 damaged, 4 people taken to hospital and one expected to spend 6 months in rehab. All because of complacency and one major contributing factor. I relate it tback to the swiss cheese theory.
We often see stories in the paper here where people claim to have been held up at crossings for 15 minutes. What BS, the longest we actually tie up a crossing is 3mins 30 seconds (obviously excepting failures, but that is rare on a crossing). People are so self absorbed in their life and their agendas they just can not be patient.

Three accidents in a day at the one intersection - all due to inattention! No contribution from the intersection design? But these same drivers presumably went through a lot of other intersections without any accidents in the same day? I suggest if accidents keep happenning in the one location, then the location must be a major factor in these accidents, and I seriously doubt that it is some magical influence that induces innattention, although it may be something about the design that makes dangers less obvious to drivers than normal.

On a similar subject of accident "causes", a quite common type of accident round here - car leaves road and hits tree, killing the teenage driver. It is probable that he (almost always "he") was travelling above the speed he was limited to as a red P plater. He is also slightly above the alcohol limit for a red P plater.

Now, is the major cause of this accident speed? Or drinking? Or inexperience? Or the law that required several cars to drive home instead of one? Or the tree a metre from the edge of a dirt road? Or the car going the other direction that was a bit late dipping? My point would be that there are multiple factors, at least two of which involve breaches of law, and assigning a single "cause" is misleading and does not help in increasing road safety.

Again, I have to stress that I am not in the slightest excusing stupid behaviour at level crossings or any other type of intersection (In over fifty years of driving the only intersection accident I have been involved in was when a car drove through a stop sign into the LH side of my car, without even slowing - and I accept it was partly my fault; I stopped, but not quite soon enough, as, knowing I had right of way, I was not driving slowly enough to stop for other traffic.)

Thanks for your contributions to this discussion.

John

Originally Posted by JDNSW

Three accidents in a day at the one intersection - all due to inattention! No contribution from the intersection design? But these same drivers presumably went through a lot of other intersections without any accidents in the same day? I suggest if accidents keep happenning in the one location, then the location must be a major factor in these accidents, and I seriously doubt that it is some magical influence that induces innattention, although it may be something about the design that makes dangers less obvious to drivers than normal.

On a similar subject of accident "causes", a quite common type of accident round here - car leaves road and hits tree, killing the teenage driver. It is probable that he (almost always "he") was travelling above the speed he was limited to as a red P plater. He is also slightly above the alcohol limit for a red P plater.

Now, is the major cause of this accident speed? Or drinking? Or inexperience? Or the law that required several cars to drive home instead of one? Or the tree a metre from the edge of a dirt road? Or the car going the other direction that was a bit late dipping? My point would be that there are multiple factors, at least two of which involve breaches of law, and assigning a single "cause" is misleading and does not help in increasing road safety.

Again, I have to stress that I am not in the slightest excusing stupid behaviour at level crossings or any other type of intersection (In over fifty years of driving the only intersection accident I have been involved in was when a car drove through a stop sign into the LH side of my car, without even slowing - and I accept it was partly my fault; I stopped, but not quite soon enough, as, knowing I had right of way, I was not driving slowly enough to stop for other traffic.)

Thanks for your contributions to this discussion.

John

John,
There is actually nothing wrong with the intersection itself, no different from hundreds of others. The biggest problem is traffic flow has increased dramatically and people just do not take due care. Three accidents in a day is unsual to say the least and I know operators that have worked the yard for 7 years and not seen one accident there. In my observation it is purely inattention at this one. People waving talking to each other, on mobile phones and not even looking at opposing traffic. Yes the intersection should be modified with the volume of traffic and preceding rail crossing to make it more capable of sustaining higher volumes of road and rail traffic, but as we live in the country the state govt and main roads do not care and are loath to spend the money. Now if it was in Perth. We watched one woman one morning nearly have 3 accidents in about 60 seconds. Firstly she parked on the rail line when we were getting ready to roll out a train, thenshe pulled forward waving to another car and chatting nearly hitting the car in front, then she went to pull out onto harbour road without checking and pulled half out in front of a road train. How she got to the shops I will never know. Very common to see people just not caring, running rail crossings, parking on the rail or no parking zone, running stops signs or not checking at the give way signs.
All of the accidents that day were from not giving way and one part inexperienced driver.
Oh and it was a full moon too.

I thought it was great that in Ontario, Canada, by law school buses have to come to a complete stop at any rail line, whether or not the lights are on or if you can see there's no train on the track at all.