off-road license (?)

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Originally Posted by solmanic

Part of the problem with just mandating driver aids like DSC is that is perpetuates the notion that you can just drive a high, 4WD like any other car.

"Look honey, this new Nissota Troopatrol Cruiser-lux corners like it's on rails...
....have you noticed that the trees here seem to grow much more sideways...?"

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That is correct. There is a study somewhere that worked out that humans have a level of risk they are comfortable with and when other factors are reduced they simply take extra risks instead. For example, crossing the street; how many people here always wait for the green sign and cross at crossing? Yet the risk/benefit tradeoff is minimal. Similarly, people in safer cars drive faster. If you don't think that's correct how would you drive if you were certain the car would catch on fire with the slightest bump? Therefore, additional safety features are good, but come with disadvantages built in.

Being a member of the Land Rover Owners Club Vic, before I am allowed to go on a club trip I must first have done a 4X4 driver course.

SWMBO and myself did this last Saturday. She was very nervous before we got there but she had a ball. I pushed her into it so she would not be so nervous as a passenger when I am 4X4ing and if something happens to me she can drive us out.

After her doing this I think I will find I might be a passenger more than I would like.

Dave.

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Originally Posted by rmp

ESC (DSC) kills momentum in sand so it'd be no good and I can't see it being calibrated to work effectively in sand either. Unfortuantely, driving aids aren't the answer, fixing the driver is.

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In fact I'd go as far as saying driver aids can cause more problems. ABS is a classic example. It's a well known fact that in some accidents ABS has not aided because the driver isn't prepared for what it will allow them to do.

It all comes down to the driver understanding what the vehicle will do under given conditions.

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Originally Posted by Mr Whippy

Being a member of the Land Rover Owners Club Vic, before I am allowed to go on a club trip I must first have done a 4X4 driver course.

SWMBO and myself did this last Saturday. She was very nervous before we got there but she had a ball. I pushed her into it so she would not be so nervous as a passenger when I am 4X4ing and if something happens to me she can drive us out.

After her doing this I think I will find I might be a passenger more than I would like.

Dave.

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Bet she wasn't half as nervous as when I let you drive the Puma;)

Look, most clubs require a course to be completed before any offroading can be done.

Therefore an easy solution would be mandatory club membership before you can drive a 4x4 off-road. This would be easy to police as we would just take club registration info to the rta (or relevant authority) and have a new liscense printed. I AM SURE IF U CAN AFFORD TO BUY A 4X4 YOU CAN AFFORD $50 FOR A NEW LICENSE. as far as tourists go they should be required to drive a test track with the hire company and competently demonstrate the required skills before going bush. The hire company then gives the driver a certificate showing they have done this (this option should only be acceptable when u show an overseas license. I had to prove i could drive a 4x4 in new zealand before i could hire it....why don't i have to here?

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Originally Posted by Lotz-A-Landies

That's an incredibly misleading statement.

The area between the high water-mark and the low water mark are by definition Crown-Land, meaning there is no private ovnership of the littoral zone.

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1. By proportion, how much crown owned land exists between the high and low water mark in Australia compared with privately owned or leased land? I would assume not much. By far the largest proportion will be inaccessible to agencies.

2. The beaches that are mentioned, are they zoned as public access/roads/etc.? If so then they come under the same statutes I mentioned earlier and can be policed.

Alan

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Originally Posted by Nobugs

Look, most clubs require a course to be completed before any offroading can be done.

Therefore an easy solution would be mandatory club membership before you can drive a 4x4 off-road. This would be easy to police as we would just take club registration info to the rta (or relevant authority) and have a new liscense printed. I AM SURE IF U CAN AFFORD TO BUY A 4X4 YOU CAN AFFORD $50 FOR A NEW LICENSE. as far as tourists go they should be required to drive a test track with the hire company and competently demonstrate the required skills before going bush. The hire company then gives the driver a certificate showing they have done this (this option should only be acceptable when u show an overseas license. I had to prove i could drive a 4x4 in new zealand before i could hire it....why don't i have to here?

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I live in the bush, and have been driving four wheel drives for offroad fifty years. Why should I be required to pay for a new licence to drive to and from my own property? I hire an employee, who learnt to drive on a four wheel drive and has been driving one since his legs were long enough, why should he be required to buy a new licence before he can get a job. It makes no difference whether the licence fee is paid to a club or the RTA.

The assumption that "I AM SURE IF U CAN AFFORD TO BUY A 4X4 YOU CAN AFFORD $50 FOR A NEW LICENSE." is insulting to those who have been struggling with drought for the last ten years, mostly are driving the same four wheel drive they were ten years ago (longer in my case), and have no choice but to drive one.

Your proposal is totally city-centric and assumes four wheel drives are only used for recreation, which is not the case.

John

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Originally Posted by Nobugs

I had to prove i could drive a 4x4 in new zealand before i could hire it....why don't i have to here?

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This would have nothing to do with ability but rather insurance. There is no licensing required for off-road use in NZ for the reasons I stated. There are however calls made from time to time to license boat skippers to try to enforce some regulation on behaviour - and every time it fails to get going because there is no practical (read that as cost effective) way to police it, just as there would be for off-road driving. In the same way, licensing is only useful when there exists an infrastructure to enforce drivers to get licensed and then to make sure they were abiding by the license restrictions.

Where things get different is if insurance companies start saying that unless a person is licensed to drive off-road then they are not covered.

As it is, one of the clubs I am a member of requires that new members prove they have done at least one off-road driving course before they can join and the reason for that is the club's insurers require it.

Alan

Was home for a few weeks in November driving in south east Queensland. Brisbane based going as far north as Bundaberg and west to Warwick.

Based on this small sample of on road driving would say that what is needed is a change in the way people think behind the wheel not more regulation. Australia has for some time now had a far more rigerous driver training regime than the UK yet the standard of driver behaviour I saw on the roads was well behind that in the UK.

It is the attitude of the nut behind the wheel that needs to improve. If correct as stated elsewhere on here and people were driving over loaded and not wearing seat belts well they just proved Darwins theory.

A good example is that accident in France a decade or so ago where they were speeding, drink driving and 3 out of 4 not wearing seat belts. Only survivor was the one in the front seat who was wearing a seat belt. Belt up and survive. If only someone had the guts to use it as a driver awareness compaign rather than tip toeing around being sensitive to those who died and looking for others to blame.

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Originally Posted by rmp

ESC (DSC) kills momentum in sand so it'd be no good and I can't see it being calibrated to work effectively in sand either. Unfortuantely, driving aids aren't the answer, fixing the driver is.

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How many systems have you tested in sand? What makes you say that? DSC is very dependent on the quality of the calibration. Have you driven and experience more than one system? Were they all the same?

Is it not possible that for a hire vehicle that would be exactly what you want?

Mitsubishi disables their DSC in low range which I am happy with. If you need it off to get through indian head, then low range it is and at least you won't be doing much more than 40 k :)