Beware Charging Dual Battery in D4.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by drivesafe

Wilbur, would you care to supply a list of the “most manufacturers”.

So your statement that “MOST battery manufacturers” is nothing more than another GROSS exaggerations.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wilbur

No, that is too time consuming, that is why I suggested Peter check with his battery supplier.

---

No good enough Wilbur, if people think that you're posting accurate info, they may then think they have to spend a fortune on something they just don’t need.

This specific bit of garbage about “MOST” batteries being limited to a 20% charge current will have people thing they need to have some form of charge limiting device to protect their batteries.

The reality is that even with the few batteries that do have as low as a 20% charge current limitation, because they should never be mounted under a bonnet, and as such, they will need a fair length of cable to connect them to the vehicle’s charging system. This long cable run acts as a quasi voltage/current regulator so there is no need for any form of current limiting.

I am so feed up with having to waste heaps of my time and customer’s time on the phone, explaining why they don’t need loads of gear, when customers have been scared into thinking they need to spend heaps on gear that will not benefit them, all because some know-it-all-know-nothing has posted up a load of garbage.

Wilbur, you posted up the statement, so where are all these battery manufacturers to back your claim.

One more point, more so for Peter’s benefit. Peter your batteries are Calcium/Calcium batteries and as such, are not charge current limited.

Hi Wilber, I tried ringing my battery manufacturer about 8 months ago to find out what voltage I should charge my battery up to. The nice receptionist passed me onto someone who answered as being the warehouse manager. When I asked him if I had a calcium battery he said "yes mate" but couldn't provide more info on the maximum voltage. Their web site contained no such information. Nothing available on maximum charge rate either. I suspect you are right and that a charge rate of 25 amp is safer and will help keep the batteries lasting longer. Before you jump in drivesafe, no I have no sound basis for that statement... Just a hunch.

Drivesafe, I enjoy our discussions and I know you have your product to defend from the competition but I find you overly aggressive in your responses. I respect you making your points and the informationn you provide but sometimes it's lost in your approach.

Peter

Hi Peter and it’s not just a case of defending my product, I’m not going to ease up until your mates stops posting up nothing but garbage.

As posted above, he’s made a statement that’s anything but correct, but even if it was, it would be virtually meaningless when everything relating to how they are used in an RV situation is factored in.

As your batteries are “SEALED” Calcium/Calcium batteries, it's the voltage you have to consider, not the current, as posted, and if the manufacturer hasn’t posted up a limitation, then any automotive situation is fine.

Note, your batteries are AUTOMOTIVE batteries, meaning they are specifically designed designed to be used in automotive situation, without the need to limit voltage or current, just connect to any alternator and let the alternator do what it’s designed to do.

BTW Peter, Calcium/Calcium batteries can charge at up to 1/3 quicker than standard flooded wet cell batteries, BUT this is only something you can take advantage of when charging off an alternator.

wet cell batteries will normally handle a c1 charge rate. (assuming you can get a charger to kick that much into them and shape it the same way an alternator does)
SLA batteries the same depending on its internal construction.
gel batteries are typically .1c
AGMs dont like being pushed above .5c but if you need to you can (but it wont have a long life)

some battery manufacturer reccomend a .2C rate Because this is the most cost effective way of putting charge into a wet cell type battery and generally results in a battery being charged in a reasonable time frame not because its all the battery can handle, if it was everytime you fired up your car with your 180a alternator in it and it spiked all the amps down range from the battery voltage being low following cranking the engine over (particualarly if the crank battery was below say a 60%soc) then we'd all toast our batteries in about 6-12 months.

hows this work...

simple pushing more amps means making more heat so roughly if you push 1amp and make one degree of heat in the wire and you push 100amp and make one hundred degrees in the wire which ones being more wastefull of energy. On top of this building a low capacity charger is a lot easier and cheaper than building one that can pump the big amps

it also works on the same concept as dicharging a battery. lets take a 100 AH battery of dual purpose generic flooded cell design so we can ignore the end effect of using a high CCA battery as a deep cycle or a deep cycle as a cranking battery.

if you draw from your battery at 1AH it'll last 100 hours
at 2 it might last 48
at 5 18
at 10 7
at 20 3
at 50 1
at 100 .4

if you multiply the numbers out (If Ive guessed them up correctly) you'll notice that the harder you draw on the battery the less effective amp hours your getting out of it. the same fractioning applies to the battery. If you push 100 amps into the above battery for an hour, once the battery has "settled" it will only be about half charged (In reality it would be approaching fully charged as you would normally have disconnected the load at the 50% soc point)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by drivesafe

No good enough Wilbur, if people think that you're posting accurate info, they may then think they have to spend a fortune on something they just don’t need.

This specific bit of garbage about “MOST” batteries being limited to a 20% charge current will have people thing they need to have some form of charge limiting device to protect their batteries.

The reality is that even with the few batteries that do have as low as a 20% charge current limitation, because they should never be mounted under a bonnet, and as such, they will need a fair length of cable to connect them to the vehicle’s charging system. This long cable run acts as a quasi voltage/current regulator so there is no need for any form of current limiting.

I am so feed up with having to waste heaps of my time and customer’s time on the phone, explaining why they don’t need loads of gear, when customers have been scared into thinking they need to spend heaps on gear that will not benefit them, all because some know-it-all-know-nothing has posted up a load of garbage.

Wilbur, you posted up the statement, so where are all these battery manufacturers to back your claim.

One more point, more so for Peter’s benefit. Peter your batteries are Calcium/Calcium batteries and as such, are not charge current limited.

---

Drivesafe, I am not your enemy. I openly acknowledge that you sell a good product that has served a lot of people very well for many years.

I also believe that in these days of sophisticated vehicle electronics there is also room in the marketplace for a more sophisticated system of charging dual batteries.

Yes, it will be more expensive but for those who can afford it there can be real benefits.

Please just allow me to make posts without you getting all hot under the collar. I am not a "know-it-all-know-nothing" and I am not posting "garbage".

:bat:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RoverLander

Hi Wilber, I tried ringing my battery manufacturer about 8 months ago to find out what voltage I should charge my battery up to. The nice receptionist passed me onto someone who answered as being the warehouse manager. When I asked him if I had a calcium battery he said "yes mate" but couldn't provide more info on the maximum voltage. Their web site contained no such information. Nothing available on maximum charge rate either. I suspect you are right and that a charge rate of 25 amp is safer and will help keep the batteries lasting longer. Before you jump in drivesafe, no I have no sound basis for that statement... Just a hunch.

Drivesafe, I enjoy our discussions and I know you have your product to defend from the competition but I find you overly aggressive in your responses. I respect you making your points and the informationn you provide but sometimes it's lost in your approach.

Peter

---

Hi Peter,

Yes, that sort of useless response is pretty common. It is sometimes hard to get onto the right person. Warehouse managers just don't really cut it for tech support.

I have found that via email both Fullriver (China) and Concorde Lifeline (USA) are very responsive and give highly detailed information. A few years ago I was working on a project using Sonnenschein batteries and they were also very helpful, but that was quite some years ago. I would expect them still to be helpful - their products are mighty expensive!

Paul

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wilbur

Please just allow me to make posts without you getting all hot under the collar. I am not a "know-it-all-know-nothing" and I am not posting "garbage".

---

Wilbur you have to be kidding!

The very reason I posted up that you are a “Know-It-All-Know-Nothing” and that you had posted up nothing but “garbage” is because that is exactly what you are doing, posting up garbage.

The perfect example is your warning to Peter that there may be current limits for his batteries because most batteries can only be charged with 20%. Well that’s garbage.

You told Peter, in his case his batteries could only be charged with 24 amps. Again, that’s garbage.

You instructed Peter to check with his battery manufacture because this 20% charge current limit was “common”. Once again, that’s garbage.

Being as Peter has already post what type of batteries he has, he even went so far as to post pictures, and as such, if you knew the slightest bit about batteries, you would know Calcium/Calcium ( Ca/Ca ) batteries are not current limited while charging because like standard flooded wet cell batteries, they are literally current self regulating while charging.

The only thing Peter might need to do, if his batteries were NOT automotive grade Ca/Ca batteries, was check to see if they were “VOLTAGE” limited.

Again, being as Peter’s batteries ARE automotive grade Ca/Ca batteries, he can hook them straight up to his alternator, and his batteries will be fine, no matter how much current his alternator can produce. But you didn’t know that and did nothing but post up some scare mongering “GARBAGE”

And just to prove my point that unsuspecting people need to be protected against garbage like yours, Peter states, “I suspect you are right” when in reality, Wilbur, like most of your “ADVICE” this “ADVICE” is “GARBAGE and you have it completely wrong.

BTW, I’m still waiting to see your list of “most battery manufacturer’s” who state that their batteries must not be charged with more than 20% SoC.

You did make this statement, so according to you, there must be heaps of battery manufacturers making this declaration, so here is your opportunity to discredit my claim that you are posting nothing but “GARBAGE”! Post up your list!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by drivesafe

Wilbur you have to be kidding!

The very reason I posted up that you are a “Know-It-All-Know-Nothing” and that you had posted up nothing but “garbage” is because that is exactly what you are doing, posting up garbage.

The perfect example is your warning to Peter that there may be current limits for his batteries because most batteries can only be charged with 20%. Well that’s garbage.

You told Peter, in his case his batteries could only be charged with 24 amps. Again, that’s garbage.

You instructed Peter to check with his battery manufacture because this 20% charge current limit was “common”. Once again, that’s garbage.

Being as Peter has already post what type of batteries he has, he even went so far as to post pictures, and as such, if you knew the slightest bit about batteries, you would know Calcium/Calcium ( Ca/Ca ) batteries are not current limited while charging because like standard flooded wet cell batteries, they are literally current self regulating while charging.

The only thing Peter might need to do, if his batteries were NOT automotive grade Ca/Ca batteries, was check to see if they were “VOLTAGE” limited.

Again, being as Peter’s batteries ARE automotive grade Ca/Ca batteries, he can hook them straight up to his alternator, and his batteries will be fine, no matter how much current his alternator can produce. But you didn’t know that and did nothing but post up some scare mongering “GARBAGE”

And just to prove my point that unsuspecting people need to be protected against garbage like yours, Peter states, “I suspect you are right” when in reality, Wilbur, like most of your “ADVICE” this “ADVICE” is “GARBAGE and you have it completely wrong.

BTW, I’m still waiting to see your list of “most battery manufacturer’s” who state that their batteries must not be charged with more than 20% SoC.

You did make this statement, so according to you, there must be heaps of battery manufacturers making this declaration, so here is your opportunity to discredit my claim that you are posting nothing but “GARBAGE”! Post up your list!

---

Okay, fair cop on that one. I hadn't noted that Peter was using Calcium as his house batteries. If I had, I wouldn't have made that post because I haven't seen any definitive specs on Ca-Ca batteries. The only thing I have seen is a vague comment that Ca-Ca batteries can be charged at a higher rate than AGM's without over-gassing.

Apologies for that.

Would you be willing to tell me where I can see specs for Ca-Ca batteries please?

Hi Wilbur,

As someone who has no stake in this discussion (but finds the technical aspects interesting), it would be nice if this topic could be kept civil. However ........

Wilbur, you seem to have a habit of making firm statements of fact and then moving on to the next statement, whilst ignoring concerns posted about your earlier statement??

As an example, your statement "most manufacturers specify a maximum charging rate of 20% of battery capacity".

This is not the same as "many manufacturers specify ..." or "some manufacturers specify ..." or "in my experience, manufacturers specify ..."

Other posters, not just Drivesafe, have posted contrary opinions. I think the onus is on you to post which manufacturers you know of who actually state a maximum charging rate for a car battery. Otherwise, qualify your statements with "in my opinion/experience" etc.

I understand that Drivesafe's getting hot under the collar is upsetting you, but just reading this thread, it's easy to see that that is driven by frustration - you never seem to provide any concrete basis for your points (however, I'd agree that perhaps Drivesafe could tone down his language a little? Please??).

If it's something you can't back up, then simply retract the statement, apologise, no harm done. I've had to do the same myself on occasion :blush:

Cheers,

Gordon