An Interesting illustration of Traction Control settings

All good points!

The RRS has slightly smaller diameter tyres which accounts for a slightly lower clearnace. The difference is tiny and would be erased by non-standard tyres or even differing inflations. LR's figures are very precise, more so than anything we'd typically do. The shorter wheelbase is a boon, personally I reckon it's fine on hills and if it isn't, then what of the Defender 90???

No question the D3 is the best all-round, but this was about offroad capability only. I do not accept the D4 etc runs rings around a Defender. I do agree in a given situation one or other will have an advantage but that is likely to be slight.

The real deal is as Gordon said, ambivalence to damage or another way, acceptance of risk. That makes the bigger difference. I am far more cautious with the D3 than Defender offroad.

Any real car offroad comparison is quite involved and needs precise control of the environment and removal of the drivers as factors. Going on a random drive is fun of course and provides talking points but doesn't prove a great deal either way. The choice of line should be restricted, but to certain degrees only; one major D3 advantage is a very tight turning circle allowing it to take lines the Defender cannot. Therefore, restricting both cars to the same line is in some cases unrealistic. But in other cases it would be valid as often there is no choice, the ledge is the ledge and either you have clearance or not.

The Wrangler does fun very well as well as offroad. Apart from that, well, yes its talents are quite limited.

Traction control getting you further in - same argument given to lockers, muddies, winches...doesn't really matter either you're in or not.

As I said before ETC is for novices in the same was as twin lockers. They're just driving aids, although ETC is very easy to use.

The Disco is practical, the Sport is more fun. Personally, I'd rather drive a Sport. I drive the D3 instead because I have to, not because I want to over the Sport. That is why I occasionally have a potshot at Sport owners, I'm jealous! Except of that pink stupdity belonging to that ball-kicker.

Tote, - I drove past you on Hindmarsh at Symonston early this afternoon - gave you a toot but you still ignored me:(.

How can you ignore a great looking car like a RRS?:D

Garry

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Originally Posted by rmp

All good points!

No question the D3 is the best all-round, but this was about offroad capability only. I do not accept the D4 etc runs rings around a Defender. I do agree in a given situation one or other will have an advantage but that is likely to be slight.

The real deal is as Gordon said, ambivalence to damage or another way, acceptance of risk. That makes the bigger difference. I am far more cautious with the D3 than Defender offroad.

Any real car offroad comparison is quite involved and needs precise control of the environment and removal of the drivers as factors.

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Well if your going to get all serious about it ............ :p

I must admit that my "run rings around ..." comment probably relays a sense of a greater advantage than really exists. There are quite a few situations though, where the difference is a little more than "slight". Having had the luxury of owning a D3 that was primarily a comp car, I'd say that when pushed hard, it is overall the better off-roader. We've beaten the Wranglers, as well as the Defer's and D1's within our class and the one above, and it certainly wasn't because I'm more skilled than other competitors. It was overall ability of the vehicle. This was on precisely controlled tracks where everyone must take the same line, although admittedly I had the optional rear eDiff.

In terms of competition work, where the D3/4 is let down is by it's ramp-over angle. Where it shines is its TC/TR, torque and lack of hanging diffs. On tight, steep tracks, you can't overstate the advantage the TC/TR gives you in full maneuverability whilst maintaining traction. Locked diffs don't do that.

Cheers,

Gordon

Totally agree re D3 analysis.

Restricting the line will start to favour one car over another. Locked rear definitely helps, and I did qualify my statement about ETC-equipped Defenders only. My own TD5 Defender also has a locked rear.

BTW I don't think the D1/D2 is as good as the Defender offroad - too small wheel diameter, lacks clearance.

I have seen really capable cars being driven really badly ;-)

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Originally Posted by garrycol

Tote, - I drove past you on Hindmarsh at Symonston early this afternoon - gave you a toot but you still ignored me:(.

How can you ignore a great looking car like a RRS?:D

Garry

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Trying to run Little girls around to get their plaster off along with attempting to buy goodies for the upcoming trip must have had all my attention...... I'll try harder to ignore you next time:D

Regards,
Tote

Just to add another angle to what is a very interesting debate.......
The vehicles on the trip were as follows:
Petrol 100 series Cruiser. No traction Aids, Cooper AT Tyres
Diesel 100 Series Cruiser. Front and rear lockers 33" Mud Tyres mild lift
Prado. Rear locker and agressive ATs ( not sure of the brand but more agressive than my Generals
Patrol. Muddies lifted 33" muddies. Factory rear LSD 4.2 Turbo

My disco was consistantly better than the petrol cruiser in all conditions. In the real wet clay the diesel cruiser was the best but we had to winch it up one section where we used a strap to get the other vehicles up. There wasn't much between the rest of the vehicles and what difference there was could be put down to driver experience. All these vehicles are tourers and not modified for "hard tracks".

All in all an excellent weekend and the takeaway for me was that if only Nissan would put a decent engine in the Patrol (and not increase the price by $30K) it would be a very strong contender.

Regards,
Tote

Thanks for this thread people.

A good balanced discussion IMO.

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Originally Posted by rmp

I have seen really capable cars being driven really badly ;-)

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:eek: Hopefully you didn't get any video of me at that 2004 comp! :eek:

I agree - when Landrover put in TR in the vehicles it really was so that dummies like me did not have to think about things - in snow then select GGS - on sand then select sand etc and then off you go invincible.

However - of course that is not the case - you also need to know to turn DSc off but you also need to know that it auto activates when you change TR mode. Also most people (and I am one) do not know exactly what happens to the car with each TR selection - does CDL acticate or not, do you auto go into low range, does height change, is TC reduced, does engine power change etc etc etc.

I think this is the knowledge you need to know to get the best out of the D3/D4 etc. However this information is very hard to find out - I have found some of it but a lot is still white man's magic.

Personally I do not think TR which automatically changes things is a good idea - however if I could change the settings that TR control manually I would be a lot happier and a better driver.

Garry

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Originally Posted by gghaggis

Well if your going to get all serious about it ............ :p

I must admit that my "run rings around ..." comment probably relays a sense of a greater advantage than really exists. There are quite a few situations though, where the difference is a little more than "slight". Having had the luxury of owning a D3 that was primarily a comp car, I'd say that when pushed hard, it is overall the better off-roader. We've beaten the Wranglers, as well as the Defer's and D1's within our class and the one above, and it certainly wasn't because I'm more skilled than other competitors. It was overall ability of the vehicle. This was on precisely controlled tracks where everyone must take the same line, although admittedly I had the optional rear eDiff.

In terms of competition work, where the D3/4 is let down is by it's ramp-over angle. Where it shines is its TC/TR, torque and lack of hanging diffs. On tight, steep tracks, you can't overstate the advantage the TC/TR gives you in full maneuverability whilst maintaining traction. Locked diffs don't do that.

Cheers,

Gordon

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I just though you meant they had a better turning circle.... ;)