Thread: Tdv6

Originally Posted by TerryO

Hi Rick,

So what is your opinion on the adding Jaso FC rated 2-stroke oil at very low volumes to diesel?

Is it a good idea or not?

One thing that confuses me some what is all the advice not to add synthetic oil as they reckon it causes carbon build up. When synthetic oil was actually created to stop carbon/soot build up.

By the way there is no reason I can see why your earlier post has disappeared.


cheers,
Terry

In my uneducated opinion I can't see adding two stroke hurting at all, I just object to the rabid 'fan boi' attitude to it prevalent across the 'net.
It's the placebo effect through and through, it sure as hell won't magically add two cylinder and 10psi of boost to your diesel, it's just a lubricant, nothing more.

As for syn oils creating more carbon over a mineral based oil.

Why do they think syn based oils are need for two stroke engines with power valves ?

Case in point, the only two stroke oils that can meet the detergency of the JASO FD spec are synthetic based.

Stihl started marketing a full syn two stroke oil (Stihl Ultra) in the US as their hybrid 4-Mix engines were carboning up their valves badly with their premium mineral based two stroke lubricant.
AFAIK warranty is void if you use a mineral lubricant in those engines in the US, you must iuse Stihl Ultra.
Castrol Europe developed that oil for Stihl.

The previous post might have got lost in the ether between here and there.
Hell, I might've clicked cancel instead of submit ?

Originally Posted by Rich84

Terry from what I can gather the reasoning against synthetic is more to do with the synthetic oil not staying in suspension with the fuel as well as mineral oil.

There are many types of synthetic oils, but few are really suitable for two stroke use.

Esters are at least as miscible as a mineral oil in mineral oil (diesel) and the really good non-castor synthetic two stroke lubes are heavily ester based.

PAO's aren't as miscible with mineral oils, but I have no idea what two stroke lubes use PAO's (if any ?) and in what %'s.

In that application certain esters make a much better base anyway.

Redline use synthetic ester lubricants in their diesel additives.

Originally Posted by isuzurover

Already at the 2nd line she is completely wrong!



Just goes to show lawyers shouldn't try their hand at engineering.

Fair enough. Maybe she should have said something like "the process for removing the sulphur reduces the lubricity of diesel"?. Does it change the essence of what she is saying?

I am not suggesting that this is a definitive answer to the topic but more so that there is interesting info there that helps to shed more light on the topic. She seems to be an intelligent individual who has access to certain info that MAY be helpful to others. There's stances for and against as there are in this thread. At worst it can just simply be disregarded.

Originally Posted by SBD4

Fair enough. Maybe she should have said something like "the process for removing the sulphur reduces the lubricity of diesel"?. Does it change the essence of what she is saying?

I am not suggesting that this is a definitive answer to the topic but more so that there is interesting info there that helps to shed more light on the topic. She seems to be an intelligent individual who has access to certain info that MAY be helpful to others. There's stances for and against as there are in this thread. At worst it can just simply be disregarded.

It shows a fundamental lack of understanding. I have previously posted summaries of cutting edge diesel lubricity research, way beyond the info that she supposedly has access to.

Lots of research money has gone into improving diesel lubricity, and all diesel sold these days has lubricity improvers added. Biodiesel is usually the cheapest and most effective lubricity additive.

e.g.

Effect of Castor Oil, Methyl and Ethyl Esters as Lubricity Enhancer for Low Lubricity Diesel Fuel (LLDF)
Author(s): Prasad, L (Prasad, Lalit)[ 1 ] ; Das, LM (Das, L. M.)[ 1 ] ; Naik, SN (Naik, S. N.)[ 2 ]
Source: ENERGY & FUELS Volume: 26 Issue: 8 Pages: 5307-5315 DOI: 10.1021/ef300845v Published: AUG 2012
Times Cited: 0 (from Web of Science)
Cited References: 20 [ view related records ] Citation MapCitation Map
Abstract: The major objective of this study was to analyze the effectiveness of Indian wild castor oil and methyl/ethyl ester as an additive to enhance the lubricity of low lubricity diesel fuel. The methyl and ethyl ester of castor oil were formulated by transesterification reaction using homogeneous acid-base catalyst. The conformity of the ester was carried out by gas chromatograph (GC) and proton nuclear magnetic resonance (H-1 NMR) spectroscopy. The lubricity, wear scar diameter (wsd), and film thickness (%) of the oil and its esters were tested alone and as an additive in low lubricity diesel fuel and compared. The lubricity of the test samples were analyzed by high-frequency reciprocating rig (HERR). The test results shows that even less than 1% of castor oil, methyl and ethyl ester are enough to regain the lubricity of the low lubricity diesel fuel. In the study, it was observed that the ethyl ester has comparatively better lubrication than their methyl counterpart and fresh oil. An additive dose of even 0.2% is enough to bring the wsd down to below the maximum allowable limit of 450 pm. The wsd of low lubricity diesel fuel (LLDF) was 654 pm. The wsd of LLDF was appreciably reduced with the addition of 1% of castor oil (CO), castor oil methyl ester (CM), and castor oil ethyl ester (CE). The percentage reduction in the wsd was observed to be 70.03%, 70.48%, and 75.69%, respectively, with the addition of 1% of additive.

Lubricity of components of biodiesel and petrodiesel. The origin of biodiesel lubricity
Author(s): Knothe, G (Knothe, G); Steidley, KR (Steidley, KR)
Source: ENERGY & FUELS Volume: 19 Issue: 3 Pages: 1192-1200 DOI: 10.1021/ef049684c Published: MAY-JUN 2005
Times Cited: 95 (from Web of Science)
Cited References: 59 [ view related records ] Citation MapCitation Map
Abstract: An alternative diesel fuel that is steadily gaining attention and significance is biodiesel, which is defined as the monoalkyl esters of vegetable oils and animal fats. Previous literature states that low blend levels of biodiesel can restore lubricity to (ultra-)low-sulfur petroleum-derived diesel (petrodiesel) fuels, which have poor lubricity. This feature has been discussed as a major technical advantage of biodiesel. In this work, the lubricity of numerous fatty compounds was studied and compared to that of hydrocarbon compounds found in petrodiesel. The effects of blending compounds found in biodiesel on petrodiesel lubricity were also studied. Lubricity was determined using the high-frequency reciprocating rig (HFRR) test. Dibenzothiophene, which is contained in nondesulfurized petrodiesel, does not enhance petrodiesel lubricity. Fatty compounds possess better lubricity than hydrocarbons, because of their polarity-imparting 0 atoms. Neat free fatty acids, monoacylglycerols, and glycerol possess better lubricity than neat esters, because of their free OH groups. Lubricity improves somewhat with the chain length and the presence of double bonds. An order of oxygenated moieties enhancing lubricity (COOH > CHO > OH > COOCH3 > C=O > C-O-C) was obtained from studying various oxygenated C-10 compounds. Results on neat C-3 compounds with OH, NH2, and SH groups show that oxygen enhances lubricity more than nitrogen and sulfur. Adding commercial biodiesel improves lubricity of low-sulfur petrodiesel more than neat fatty esters, indicating that other biodiesel components cause lubricity enhancement at low biodiesel blend levels. Adding glycerol to a neat ester and then adding this mixture at low blend levels to low-lubricity petrodiesel did not improve petrodiesel lubricity. However, adding polar compounds such as free fatty acids or monoacylglycerols improves the lubricity of low-level blends of esters in low-lubricity petrodiesel. Thus, some species (free fatty acids, monoacylglycerols) considered contaminants resulting from biodiesel production are responsible for the lubricity of low-level blends of biodiesel in (ultra-)low-sulfur petrodiesel. Commercial biodiesel is required at a level of 1%-2% in low-lubricity petrodiesel, which exceeds the typical additive level, to attain the lubricity-imparting additive level of biodiesel contaminants in petrodiesel.
Accession Number: WOS:000229320700065

Fuel lubricity
Author(s): Margaroni, D (Margaroni, D)
Source: INDUSTRIAL LUBRICATION AND TRIBOLOGY Volume: 50 Issue: 3 Pages: 108-+ DOI: 10.1108/00368799810218026 Published: MAY-JUN 1998
Times Cited: 11 (from Web of Science)
Cited References: 14 [ view related records ] Citation MapCitation Map
Abstract: Problems associated with inadequate fuel lubricity were identified in the aeronautical industry in the 1960s, following a succession of in-flight engine failures. The influence of fuel composition upon fuel lubricity was established, as was the effect of various lubricity additives. Problems associated with inadequate fuel lubricity were also subsequently identified in light-duty diesel engines when low-sulphur fuel was introduced. Again, the use of additives or modifications to the refining process overcame the problem at the time, but the continuing trend towards higher injection pressures may require further improvements in current fuel lubricity. The manufacture and use of biodiesel is described, together with the attendant benefits, including use as a lubricity additive in conventional diesel fuel, also disadvantages. The imminent introduction of direct-injection gasoline passenger car engines has now focused attention on the lubricity of gasoline, which is again likely to become a key issue. Two standardised test procedures for the measurement of fuel lubricities are described.

Yamaha Fan demonstrates no understanding of what she's writing about!

Quotes completely incorrect statements about diesel, cetane etc.

Even the simplest things are wrong!

She's 370 posts in and the Freeby forumites are hanging on her word like she's the freakin Lara Croft of chemistry!

She's a lawyer, claiming to be the best and subject to all this "special information"...

Well sorry. I disagree...

Btw - no lawyer would be silly enough to post "yeah it will do throw it in"
Type statements - especially online!!!

She's opened herself up to a tonne of responsibility if anyone does it and blows the engine!

lol, glad I hitched my wagon to that train

Thanks for setting me straight fellas.

Originally Posted by SBD4

lol, glad I hitched my wagon to that train

Thanks for setting me straight fellas.

Don't feel bad... I read about 60 pages of info, plus all her other posts to see what was going on!!!!!

If you want to do the 2T thing at your own risk - so be it..

Basically what 2T does:
Achieves a NVH change by a "softening" of the explosion in each cylinder through the oil not igniting as readily... Less bang, less noise!

To claim it extends the life of a pump by adding more lubrication - how much more does it need exactly? Was the pump not adequately lubricated in the first instance? Considering they are getting 300-500,000km old engines now I'd be seriously questioning those claims!

Best fit a Hiclone, Fuel catalyst, polarizer, and Electronic rust system at the same time.

Originally Posted by Tombie

.....

Best fit a Hiclone, Fuel catalyst, polarizer, and Electronic rust system at the same time.

I've got all of those