Thread: Cheapest Place to Buy Lifeguard 6 by the Litre

Originally Posted by Discodicky

I flushed and changed the auto oil using Penrite BMV in my 8 speed ZF at 102,000 klms and have now done 136,000 k's with no probs at all.
Also added Wynns auto oil supplement as I have had excellent results with it over the years.
Many others on this Forum are also using BMV.
With much respect to all, seeing that BMV is (one of the few oils) available which has proven to be a genuine substitute for Lifeguard ZF6/8 I can't understand why you'd consider Lifeguard at such stupidly outrageous prices.

My thoughts to this:
1. You've used Wynns additive which is designed to change the oil/fluid. So if you've used the right stuff, why mix in an additive that's going to change it? It's now not properly the right stuff. Surely if Wynns had created some amazing product large companies like ZF would have got on board?
2. My concern with the Penrite BMV, and the reason why I've stayed with genuine ZF despite using a large number of Penrite's other products is that it replaces both LF6 and 8 - they're not the same product as each other, so therefore the Penrite mustn't be exactly the same as them either...
3. You've mentioned the extra cost of going the genuine route - two thoughts on this: 1. negligible compared to the cost of a replacement transmission, 2. if your cost conscious why then spend the extra on that Wynns additive too?

Can’t agree more. Adding anything to the oil changes it, so saying BMV works then adulterating it completely defeats any previous evidence and the experience of others. You’re now in uncharted territory.

I did a drop and refill a few months ago (90K on the clock) and agonized over BMV vs LG8. I did a lot of online reading on various platforms, lots of people saying the BMV is working well and on a number of occasions I'd decided to use the BMV. However, i the end I went with the LG8, mostly I guess for peace of mind.

I'm hoping the BMV proves its self over a period of time but for me the concern is that running without problem for 30k,40k,60k odd KMs doesn't yet make it a proven alternative. NB: If people have been running it for longer KMs it would be great to hear about and apologies for limiting the KMs to 60k.

For good or bad, I have a previous experience that affects my thinking: Years ago I put a Supra gearbox in my HX Ute. When buying oil to fill it ,the local parts shop's 'system' said it used ATF (it turned out that was common, incorrect recommendation, later boxes were supplied with a note saying not t use AFT and specifying the correct grade of gear oil) which I used. The box ran fine for 100,000 or so KMs until it failed. My point is that up the point if failed I would have said it had no issues.

Here's hoping that BMV is an alternative and thanks to everyone out there 'testing' it. Please keep us updated as the KMs tick over.

Originally Posted by Dagilmo

I did a drop and refill a few months ago (90K on the clock) and agonized over BMV vs LG8. I did a lot of online reading on various platforms, lots of people saying the BMV is working well and on a number of occasions I'd decided to use the BMV. However, i the end I went with the LG8, mostly I guess for peace of mind.

I'm hoping the BMV proves its self over a period of time but for me the concern is that running without problem for 30k,40k,60k odd KMs doesn't yet make it a proven alternative. NB: If people have been running it for longer KMs it would be great to hear about and apologies for limiting the KMs to 60k.

For good or bad, I have a previous experience that affects my thinking: Years ago I put a Supra gearbox in my HX Ute. When buying oil to fill it ,the local parts shop's 'system' said it used ATF (it turned out that was common, incorrect recommendation, later boxes were supplied with a note saying not t use AFT and specifying the correct grade of gear oil) which I used. The box ran fine for 100,000 or so KMs until it failed. My point is that up the point if failed I would have said it had no issues.

Here's hoping that BMV is an alternative and thanks to everyone out there 'testing' it. Please keep us updated as the KMs tick over.

Hopefully that wasnt 100k kms on the same fluid charge? All mechanical parts wear- period. Regardless of fluid used.

Imho if the fluid wasnt suitable at all, failure would occur quite quickly and spectacularly. So 10,20, 30k km tells me no adverse effects.

PS, i am sure the boffins at the various fluid suppliers would have done significantly more testing before making recommendations.

Originally Posted by Eric SDV6SE

PS, i am sure the boffins at the various fluid suppliers would have done significantly more testing before making recommendations.

They create a blend with the additive packs that meet a specification then sell it as that compatibility - so Dextron VI ad-pack applied to a base stock then it’s “LG6 compatible”.

They will get it lab tested to ensure the blend meets expectations. If you’re lucky they might try it in a vehicle first. I can assure you they don’t test it in any endurance long term in the list of vehicles on the bottle.

Penrite were the ones to release the first “LG6 compatible” oil (that wasn’t), withdrew the approval and took how many years to finally release BMV? A few.

So no, I don’t take their word for it per se. Again I’m sure BMV will be ok as it seems all manufacturers have access to the LG6 ad-pack now.

Originally Posted by Eric SDV6SE

PS, i am sure the boffins at the various fluid suppliers would have done significantly more testing before making recommendations.

I doubt it - if they make it and sell it, of course they will say it works.

You can buy LG6 for under $30 a litre, just a little more than my engine oil - why risk it to save a few dollars every couple of years.

Originally Posted by DiscoJeffster

They create a blend with the additive packs that meet a specification then sell it as that compatibility - so Dextron VI ad-pack applied to a base stock then it’s “LG6 compatible”.

They will get it lab tested to ensure the blend meets expectations. If you’re lucky they might try it in a vehicle first. I can assure you they don’t test it in any endurance long term in the list of vehicles on the bottle.

Penrite were the ones to release the first “LG6 compatible” oil (that wasn’t), withdrew the approval and took how many years to finally release BMV? A few.

So no, I don’t take their word for it per se. Again I’m sure BMV will be ok as it seems all manufacturers have access to the LG6 ad-pack now.

Originally Posted by DiscoJeffster

They create a blend with the additive packs that meet a specification then sell it as that compatibility - so Dextron VI ad-pack applied to a base stock then it’s “LG6 compatible”.

They will get it lab tested to ensure the blend meets expectations. If you’re lucky they might try it in a vehicle first. I can assure you they don’t test it in any endurance long term in the list of vehicles on the bottle.

Penrite were the ones to release the first “LG6 compatible” oil (that wasn’t), withdrew the approval and took how many years to finally release BMV? A few.

So no, I don’t take their word for it per se. Again I’m sure BMV will be ok as it seems all manufacturers have access to the LG6 ad-pack now.

Not quite how it works.

All the smaller blenders buy their additive packs from the big additive companies, Lubrizol, (probably the biggest independent additive developer and supplier in the world) RT Vanderbilt, Infineum (joint venture between Exxon Mobil and Shell) etc.

These big chem companies do all the leg work, the reverse engineering of a proprietory lubricant, (Gas chromatography) developing and working out what will work to meet a spec.
They then offer these to the independent blenders, with recommendations as to what % of add pack to base oils to meet a requirement.
The good independent blenders them mix and test to check, and if they want to gain licensing, submit the blend to the manufacturer. ZF only license fluids for their old AT's requiring TE ML 11a/b fluids, the old Dex IIIH spec.
A blender can also get custom additive blends, depending on what market they are aiming for.

ATF's aren't super complex.
You have a viscosity requirement.
You have a frictional requirement for correct clutch operation, this depends on the type of clutch face material.
You would have an anti-wear component
A mild extreme pressure component.
Friction modifiers to eliminate lock up clutch shudder, these vary depending on lockup clutch material.
Anti-foam additive, oxidation and life requirement, etc.

Lubrizol for arguments sake, will develop an add pack that can actually meet a number of specs by combining additives in the add pack.
Basic ZF frictional requirements are based pretty much on GM Dexron fluids, and that's an easy place to start, then Lubrizol will reverse engineer LG6 &8 and then blend and test and once happy market it to blenders like Penrite.
I'm using those two as examples as they have a relationship going back decades.

Mostly they get it right, occasionally they don't.

The problem with comparing any alternative is even with no oil changes an Auto can potentially last 200-250K kms with no issues, and one which has been serviced with the correct fluid regularly may still wear out by 300K.

You would need to run an alternative oil over the full transmission life side by side to truly know if one is as good as another.

The true claimed benefit of the lifeguard fluid is you can extend the service life - which car manufacturers translated into extending the service interval to reduce operating costs (a big issue for the leased car market).

I suspect operating temp has more impact on transmission life than whether you run the Lifeguard or the Penrite oil, however I am sure the Lifeguard fluid is the best you can get. But is it twice as good?