Thread: Which is better Off Road a D3/4 or a late model Defender? ... Puma 110

Originally Posted by PAT303

I'll bite,Terry your totally wrong.The defender is very stable,something I proved with my own vehicle when I did a defensive driving course,my TDCi out braked,out turned and basically out did all the other 4wds.If you look at vehicles like the Prado,Hilux,Triton as examples they cannot do the swerve around the witches hats test because they'll fall over,my TDCi did it easy,it also stopped a car length shorter than the next best vehicle,3 lengths shorter than a troopy and the defender does has crumple zones,look at the chassis,the ends are weaker than the middle cab section,that is called a fold point,an engineered energy absorption area for front or rear impacts,also don't confuse a crumpled body as being weak,the defender doesn't crumple any worse than most other vehicles because they are designed to,that crumpling uses energy as well as momentum,momentum is a very important energy to disperse in the case of a roll over. Pat

And following on from that, I've had a loaded front tyre failure at 100km/h+ on a bend sign posted at 75km/h and the car didn't deviate from it's course although I had the tyre roll off the rim.

Not bad for an 'unstable' vehicle.

Keep trying Terry.

Originally Posted by Meken

I press the hill descent button.... Take my foot of the brake and pick my line - all at the insane speed of 1 1/2 km/hr

yes, I do the same in my RRS, I was just referencing the comment about Puma's engine braking compared to previous Defender models

TerryO you had chuckling this morning - cheers.

The D1 in stock form is a deceptive weapon. That A Frame rear and ultra soff long travel suspension, light alloy body, low COG, rellatively short wheelbase and short overhang is a terrific combination.

Cheers

The RRC/D1 chassis is like a rabbit,the further you throw it into the blackberry bushes the better it looks,the best ever 4wd chassis in my honest opinion,it's simply outstanding at everything. Pat

Not having driven one, a D4, i will have to accept the common wisdom the D4 is a hugely technically capable vehicle, especially if you dont have any friends or cargo for more than a week away from civilization.

What it will never have when off roading is the Je Nous Se Qua that the Defender have in its delivery of an off road experience.

How many times does a Defer trundle, waddle, ( i cant say power) down a track or beach and every head turns, and often a nod of approval, (or disbelief)

I can imagine HRH, James Bond or myself in a Defender or Range Rover, but a half breed mongrel compromise I don't think so.

Let's pick up this conversation in 2050 and see if the Discovery lasts thetest of time and is still being made.

Originally Posted by Marty110

as said the extra low first gear in the 6 speed Puma box makes all the difference off road and towing too compared to the Tdi and TD5 (and most other 4WD's). My Puma 110 is the first 4WD in 40years that I've owned that I have not had to at least 'feather' the brakes on insane downhill slopes - just sit in with foot off the brake and no run away at all. this was in the High Country, cant remember the track name. So all you have to do is sit there and pick your line down hill

Even the LC with all it's power needs the clutch ridden to get off the mark,it's a shame they didn't make it into the vehicle it could have been. Pat

Originally Posted by Marty110

as said the extra low first gear in the 6 speed Puma box makes all the difference off road and towing too compared to the Tdi and TD5 (and most other 4WD's). My Puma 110 is the first 4WD in 40years that I've owned that I have not had to at least 'feather' the brakes on insane downhill slopes - just sit in with foot off the brake and no run away at all. this was in the High Country, cant remember the track name. So all you have to do is sit there and pick your line down hill

Totally agree with you concerning the TDCi low first gear ratio being excellent for feet-off approaches to the steepest downhills. Additional comments:
- this is why the idle-jack feature exists, without the idle revs being jacked up a few hundred RPM (low range 1st gear only) it was deemed by LR wheel speed was too slow! For safe descents

- I get to tackle those same insane steep descents on wet slippery clay at times in the Malaysian jungle. Very different to Oz's dry sclerophyll forests.

Here is a scenario that novices get into real trouble, not realizing that at times when you start sliding while feet off you need to (counter intuitively) accelerate to get wheels turning closer to ground speed and then back off gently hoping to bring speeds back down gradually.

The TDCi is excellent at this. The throttle curves in the ECU allow you to just blip the throttle and it handles the very gradual reduction back to idle revs for you.

Originally Posted by TerryO

Thank you for your post Pat, a measurement of stability I guess in this instance is a relative thing. Yes a Defender more than likely is more stable than a Prado, Hilux, Triton etc. But compared to many other 4x4's like a D4 I bet it is not very stable at all.

The sad thing in all of this for Defender owners and occupants is even if a Defender is more stable than a Prado, Hilux or Triton at least they have reasonable passenger cabin structural strength and their roofs just don't fold flat if rolled. I might be wrong but I can't remember ever seeing either internal or external steel roll cages for any other recently built 4x4 other than big shiny alloy ones that are all show. What does that say about the strength of a Defenders roof and cabin?

I guess the question Defender owners should ask themselves in this discussion is would you rather be in a Defender or a D4 in a roll over? I have always considered a Defender as a very capable purpose built iconic vehicle, but I do think this is one thing LR should have improved in their build standards over the decades.

Couldn't have agreed more

Have to agree as well,the D4 handles and brakes much better than a Puma,as would be expected.
The Puma does handle pretty well though,and i am not surprised as Pat has said it out handles the others in his post.I got out of my D2 once and drove one of my brothers Prado and it felt like it was going to tip over on every corner.

The Puma well and truly out handles both a mates patrol ute,and my Hiace work van that i drive everyday.In fact it puts the van to shame.but it does have less wheel travel than a lawn mower..

The actual ride in a stock 110 Puma is pretty good as well,the suspension is good.A 40mm lift does give it more,as does the BAS chip

But the van,loaded, will out brake a Puma all day,as will the D4,even though both are much heavier.

I thought i read on here somewhere latest Defenders had stability control?

FWIW,and IMHO,you can't really compare a Puma with a D3/4,they are completely different vehicles built for different markets,the only thing common is the badge on the front.