Thread: Which is better Off Road a D3/4 or a late model Defender? ... Puma 110

Originally Posted by 1nando

Whats made this such a debate is the op's post of: which is better offroad? Thats what he basically was asking.

For a long time in this thread d4 owners were convinced that they're vehicles were better offroad compared to defender pumas. I just cant agree with that but i agree thet both have good and bad points. Both are capable and provably better suited to different scenarios.
In regards to the ops post my opinion is the defender is the more capable offroad vehicle, and is a great platform to modify and improve on.

Great cars, both landys.....

I'm not sure that's true at all. I recon most D4 owners wouldn't have the foggiest idea how capable the car is. They would actually believe that it is nothing more than a shiny shopping trolley that can go on the beach.....a bit like what Deefer owners think too ... LOL!!!


The good thing is, I've seen more D4s off-road these days than I ever have D3s or earlier. Maybe that's just a perception thing. Owners are discovering (no pun intended) just how capable their vehicle is and then they start pushing it further each time as their confidence grows. I think that's great.


Your last comment is absolutely spot on

My view is that the gun you cannot fire, the bomb you cannot drop, is of no use at all.

My own personal take is that if I were the proud owner of a new D4 I would not be able to bring MYSELF to take it off-road and expose it to damage as little as pinstriping from undergrowth. So to me it is not even an option as an off-roader. (...and yes, if a diamond studded special edition anniversary/end of line Defender cost as much as a D4, I'd not take that bludger off-road either.)

A bog standard new TDCi Defender though is (was) significantly less expensive. The TDCi DCPU is much closer in price to things like dual cab hilux's et al.

That vehicle (the TDCi DCPU) is a vehicle I have no qualms driving from showroom into Malaysian jungles and pinstriping it grandly. My first real off-road outing in my TDCi DCPU saw boulders demolish all 4 folding side steps leaving barely discernible crimps in the lowest body side skirt panels.

Fix? Remove the side steps and junk them when I got home. Had I been driving a shiny new D4 we'd have camped up at the first sign of possible body damage and missed the rest of the trip

That's just me. It doesn't say the D4 wouldn't have made the trip (and the many more thereafter).

Originally Posted by TerryO

A few have got all hung up over the word better, for no good reason either that I can see if they had read the whole post.

If the whole post is read in context then I believe it's reasonably clear what the basic criteria is and the kind of conditions one could reasonably expect in such a comparison at their local reasonably challenging 4wd tracks that many frequent on weekends for a bit of fun. That being the kind of off road 4x4 driving conditions were mud tyres, rock sliders, front bull bar and a snorkel might be needed to get you through.
Plus to make it relevant and fair I made it the two most similar in size and seating capacity wagons that LR make in both ranges, then I put them on similar sized and spec tyres so again they are equal WRONG and the vehicles ability is tested not how big or aggressive a particular vehicles tyres are and the advantage that would give . Actually to reiterate this point again. your increasing the D3/4 tyre size by 2-3inches,(at a cost of ?$6-9,000) the defender should be allowed the same to be "fair" otherwise it is no longer a fair comparison. It then becomes a engineer approved D3/4 is much better in a specific spot than a stock standard defender. Either make the tyres stock or allow BOTH the same percentage increase otherwise its just a self-reassurance therapy thread.

So to move the focus away from the word better, let's say which of the two vehicles is the more capable serious off roader in this spec? ...

Even with those $20,000 plus worth of mods to the disco compared to 1500-2000 on the defender, as that's all a defender owner is allowed to do according to your post, its still defender 70 disco 30.
Disco is now 2.7 ton, defender is now 2.1, or 500kg payload v 900kg.
Why is this important you say, ok lets get serious, say 4 avg bodies 20 days away from civilization/ frappe lattes in the desert . Equals 280kg bodies, plus water at 5lt/day/person=400kg, plus food at 1kg/day/person=80kg.
This gives 760kg load. (even if you halve the time the weight is still 520kg which overloads the disco)
In a disco this is overloaded BY 50% before you even think about tent, extra fuel, bedding, clothes, dunny paper, med kit etc
In a defender 110 you still have 140kg for other items.
hell Lets just do the current 5 day weekend for 4 mates. 280kg bodies(in my case more like 4x100)(4x70), , 100kg water, aircomp 15kg, 25kg 20lt fuel jerry can, 5 slabs 45kg, big esky and ice 40kg, food 30kg, tent 15kg bedding 20kg ,clothes 10kg, Tool box/few spares 15kg.
So if you went to camp this weekend with 3 "smallish" mates the load is 615. So with the other accessories(around 100kg) the disco is overloaded by 100kg plus.
So disco owners which 2 mates do you leave behind?
Now you want to do some harder tracks in the 2nd or 3rd morning when sober, you really should think of a 2nd spare with a compressor, another 40-50kg for a spare, 10-15kg compressor and another 15kg for a roof rack to store it.
Looks like its just you alone.


P.s a lot have the stock clearances mixed up.
Disco has 258 in off-road not 300 , defender 250. but defender has 300+before contact anywhere else which creates an interesting question.
If your in a group and the bloke in front goes through a creek/muddy puddle and you cant see him dislodge and flip up a 350mm high rock, what is it going to hit underneath the disco besides your axle on your way over it? In a defender if the pumpkin misses , the axle would contact then not much else. In a disco?
Here are the 2 factory specs to compare.
Off-Road Vehicle Specifications - Discovery
Off-Roader Specifications and Pricing - Defender

P.s a lot have the stock clearances mixed up.
Disco has 258 in off-road not 300 , defender 250. which creates an interesting question.
If your in a group and the bloke in front goes through a creek/muddy puddle and you cant see him dislodge and flip up a 350mm high rock, what is it going to hit underneath the disco besides your axle on your way over it? In a defender if the pumpkin misses , the axle would contact then not much else. In a disco?
Here are the 2 factory specs to compare.
Off-Road Vehicle Specifications - Discovery
Off-Roader Specifications and Pricing - Defender

Yes, a lot are confused about ground clearance of the D4. But please don't insult me by putting me in that group. The D4 goes a lot higher than the "off-road" setting

Cheers

Gordon

What is happening with payloads. The D2 is 600-750kg. Why are bigger heavier vehciles not getting a big payload relative to their weight (and the worst example is the 200 series cruiser).

Cheers

I'm loving this thread....such passion, even if at times we are going around in circles

Obviously my personal chose of vehicle is a D4, there are things I need that a Defender simply can't deliver, no matter how much I may love to have one. My vehicle has to compromise between work, family and off road fun and a D4 does that spectacularly well.

Both are awesome vehicles and both are extremely capable. " Which is better off road" I suspect it really depends very much on what sort of "off-road " we are talking and the willingness of the driver to push the vehicle.

I am dead sure mine is far more capable than me!

Frantic raises some very valid points about weight - if you are trying to travel with a car full of people unsupported for an extended period, a D 3/4 is the wrong choice in my view. If I was building a dedicated expedition vehicle it would not be around a D4 - but that is because of load carrying capability - not off road ability.

Besides, I prefer to travelling alone anyway.

Put side by side on equivalent terrain, driven by drivers with similar levels of skill and a similar willingness to go for it, I suspect there may not be much in it.

I've taken mine through some pretty rough terrain and I'm confident I could take it anywhere I could take a defender.

Which of the two vehicles is better off road - buggered if I know.

But I do know my toes stay dry crossing rivers

Originally Posted by frantic

Even with those $20,000 plus worth of mods to the disco compared to 1500-2000 on the defender, as that's all a defender owner is allowed to do according to your post, its still defender 70 disco 30.
Disco is now 2.7 ton, defender is now 2.1, or 500kg payload v 900kg.
Why is this important you say, ok lets get serious, say 4 avg bodies 20 days away from civilization/ frappe lattes in the desert . Equals 280kg bodies, plus water at 5lt/day/person=400kg, plus food at 1kg/day/person=80kg.
This gives 760kg load. (even if you halve the time the weight is still 520kg which overloads the disco)
In a disco this is overloaded BY 50% before you even think about tent, extra fuel, bedding, clothes, dunny paper, med kit etc
In a defender 110 you still have 140kg for other items.
hell Lets just do the current 5 day weekend for 4 mates. 280kg bodies(in my case more like 4x100)(4x70), , 100kg water, aircomp 15kg, 25kg 20lt fuel jerry can, 5 slabs 45kg, big esky and ice 40kg, food 30kg, tent 15kg bedding 20kg ,clothes 10kg, Tool box/few spares 15kg.
So if you went to camp this weekend with 3 "smallish" mates the load is 615. So with the other accessories(around 100kg) the disco is overloaded by 100kg plus.
So disco owners which 2 mates do you leave behind?
Now you want to do some harder tracks in the 2nd or 3rd morning when sober, you really should think of a 2nd spare with a compressor, another 40-50kg for a spare, 10-15kg compressor and another 15kg for a roof rack to store it.
Looks like its just you alone.

Very valid points, Mr frantic.
The thing I am getting here is Discovery 3/4 drivers don't have mates. Defender drivers are very socially active and have lots of friends.
This further explains why, on my expedition last Thursday, every Defender (and a few Discovery 1 and 2) I passed waved but the Discovery 3 and 4 drivers did not even bat an eyelid.

You know all this talk about dry toes on a river crossing. When we were at the cape we were there in a defender 110 and phil was there in the D4 the cars were very well matched even though we were towing considerably more weight. We did have to winch the D4 out but that was due to circumstance.

I will say though I'm glad our toes got wet.

You might ask why

Because when we both entered a over bonnet depth creek, the D4 went in and the thing was so bloody well sealed that it began to float!!

Now I'm sorry but i would prefer my car not to float and loose traction
He did get across ok but the vehicle did take a change of angle for the few seconds it floated which could have been a little hairy if there was any sort of flow to this water which there wasn't. (Obviously wouldn't have crossed it if it was)

But just pointing out sometimes flaws work in your favour