D4 Rollover

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Originally Posted by blackrangie

Not from what i can see in these vids, either rpm is too low in these scenerios and legit stalls or its a software enduced protection stall.

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Read the posts - even the owner states the error.

High rpm, stuck, back off quick, stall...

That’s an engine going from full boost high rpm to vehicle stopped in under a second.
The TC is locked, the rpm drops below idle and it stalls.

On a surface where the wheels continue to slip a little the TC unlocks and it continues at idle.

Remember these things have excellent Traction control, so don’t spin up like open diffs.. the equivalent would be lockers on on an early vehicle.. no slip will stall.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tombie

Read the posts - even the owner states the error.

High rpm, stuck, back off quick, stall...

That’s an engine going from full boost high rpm to vehicle stopped in under a second.
The TC is locked, the rpm drops below idle and it stalls.

On a surface where the wheels continue to slip a little the TC unlocks and it continues at idle.

Remember these things have excellent Traction control, so don’t spin up like open diffs.. the equivalent would be lockers on on an early vehicle.. no slip will stall.

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I wouldnt classify the rpm in the vids as high,

A properly set up chev set at 550rpm wont usually stall under all the above scenerios even after 6000rpm and 35s come to a halt.

Ill bet this is a software stall due to certain scenerios being met.

I don't own a D4 so I'm leaving emotions out of it. I'm just saying how I see it from this thread and the multiple first person accounts of this happening and the scenarios that happens along with the videos.

I could be wrong but they do seem to be stalling too easily.

i would consider an auto stalling under any conditions a failure and not expected or wanted behavior.

Glad to hear your ok Mark and i wish you the best of luck with your insurer.

As for the d4 rolling; i drive a modern hd vehicle claimed to be built for offroad use. The problem with my very modern HD vehicle is that all the technologys in the world which are supposed to be safer and make it easier to drive also can lead to a accident like yours. This is where the defender and other built for purpose HD offroad vehicles are better for tough off road conditions. A vehicle with a real handbrake and a foot full of brake pedal would have allowed you to restart and keep going. Technology has let you down in this instance!

Some on here and maybe yourself will read this comment and get p$$d off, however your vehcile wouldnt of rolled with a proper handbrake and a foot full of brake pedal. You would have been able to restart the engine and keep going. A real hd offroad vehcile shouldnt need HDC to climb a hill!

My Patrol has a stupid foot handbrake and although it has hill start assist and HDC its technology id rather not have. Again im sure many wont agree but i think a simpler vehcile would have been much safer in this situation.

Now i know you'll say that if you'd been in a defender and rolled that would be worse and although i agree i guarantee i would have never rolled a defender in that situation! Id put my mortgage on it.

As for the OP; my thoughts are that the benefits of technology aren't always as reliable or safe as old school mechanical technology. You shouldnt need a manual on how to electronically prepare your car to go up a hill and then have a back up by having HDC on in case of stalling.

Anyway best of luck going forward mate.

It has a real handbrake... he didn’t use it..

Good luck grabbing a **** load of handbrake on a Defender as it slips out from under you offroad.. that just isn’t going to happen.

What DID happen is he put it in P intending to use the transmission pawl (something I’ve warned about lots of times) to hold the vehicle whilst restarting.
That’s a huge no!
And reports of clicking as the pawl fails and the vehicle toboggans backwards by which time it has inertia and mass.

As I mentioned several posts ago, 2 of us went to a great hill down behind the pub at Sellicks... this hill is easily max gradient for climbing.
Both vehicles slid backwards, handbrakes on, foot brakes on... necessitating some sphincter clenching driving to save the vehicles...

Everyone has seen the Pajero, LC200 and Patrol videos I assume? Where they just get ever so slightly offline and next thing are barrel rolling into the scrub?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tombie

It has a real handbrake... he didn’t use it..

Good luck grabbing a **** load of handbrake on a Defender as it slips out from under you offroad.. that just isn’t going to happen.

What DID happen is he put it in P intending to use the transmission pawl (something I’ve warned about lots of times) to hold the vehicle whilst restarting.
That’s a huge no!
And reports of clicking as the pawl fails and the vehicle toboggans backwards by which time it has inertia and mass.

As I mentioned several posts ago, 2 of us went to a great hill down behind the pub at Sellicks... this hill is easily max gradient for climbing.
Both vehicles slid backwards, handbrakes on, foot brakes on... necessitating some sphincter clenching driving to save the vehicles...

Everyone has seen the Pajero, LC200 and Patrol videos I assume? Where they just get ever so slightly offline and next thing are barrel rolling into the scrub?

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Regardless Tombie i think you'd agree that it shouldnt be that complicated. Should be park brake, foot full of brake pedal and start vehicle.

Ps i used my handbrake many times in the 110 offroad on very steep rutted terrain and it worked perfectly every time. In saying that my vehicle was meticulously maintained and the handbrake always had the right tension.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by blackrangie

I wouldnt classify the rpm in the vids as high,

A properly set up chev set at 550rpm wont usually stall under all the above scenerios even after 6000rpm and 35s come to a halt.

Ill bet this is a software stall due to certain scenerios being met.

I don't own a D4 so I'm leaving emotions out of it. I'm just saying how I see it from this thread and the multiple first person accounts of this happening and the scenarios that happens along with the videos.

I could be wrong but they do seem to be stalling too easily.

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What gives then?

When 4x 35” of tyre and rim comes down from 6,000rpm of engine to 0 rotational speed what gives?

A slippery unlocked Torque converter will save it and keep it idling, but a locked Tc or a manual certainly won’t. And if the engine doesn’t give, something else will...

I don’t need to get emotional - just logical.
I have older points of reference and a really nice vehicle test area 2km away..
So I’ve taken the D4 there and tested the things in this discussion.. I can take the Defender as well [emoji6] it was in the old Quarry Sunday playing!

Before anyone on here can come to a conclusion we would need:
- Software versions for each module on each vehicle.
- telemetry from each vehicle
- tyre sizes

Then we can start building a scenario..

Here’s a vid: old school RR stalls....
Range Rover Rollover - YouTube

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tombie

It has a real handbrake... he didn’t use it..

Good luck grabbing a **** load of handbrake on a Defender as it slips out from under you offroad.. that just isn’t going to happen.

What DID happen is he put it in P intending to use the transmission pawl (something I’ve warned about lots of times) to hold the vehicle whilst restarting.
That’s a huge no!
And reports of clicking as the pawl fails and the vehicle toboggans backwards by which time it has inertia and mass.

As I mentioned several posts ago, 2 of us went to a great hill down behind the pub at Sellicks... this hill is easily max gradient for climbing.
Both vehicles slid backwards, handbrakes on, foot brakes on... necessitating some sphincter clenching driving to save the vehicles...

Everyone has seen the Pajero, LC200 and Patrol videos I assume? Where they just get ever so slightly offline and next thing are barrel rolling into the scrub?

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Lets not let this get out of hand, nobody is saying the D4s or D3s or watever are bad, they just seem to stall more than usual on steep challenging terrain..question is why?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tombie

What gives then?

When 4x 35” of tyre and rim comes down from 6,000rpm of engine to 0 rotational speed what gives?

A slippery unlocked Torque converter will save it and keep it idling, but a locked Tc or a manual certainly won’t. And if the engine doesn’t give, something else will...

I don’t need to get emotional - just logical.
I have older points of reference and a really nice vehicle test area 2km away..
So I’ve taken the D4 there and tested the things in this discussion.. I can take the Defender as well [emoji6] it was in the old Quarry Sunday playing!

Before anyone on here can come to a conclusion we would need:
- Software versions for each module on each vehicle.
- telemetry from each vehicle
- tyre sizes

Then we can start building a scenario..

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Maybe just getting a TC unlock switch will fix