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Thread: Can a Disco 4 tow a van with 350kg ball weight... I think not fit for purpose..

  1. #61
    Join Date
    Nov 2018
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    Melbourne
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blknight.aus View Post
    not so.



    you have only eaten into you weight IF you take it to 350KG.

    if your ball weight is 150KG you dont have to worry about a thing because the D4 includes 150Kg ball weight in the GVM... if you want to have a ball weight OVER 150KG on the detachable hitch THEN you have to start taking weight out of the NET load of the vehicle not the GVM

    so (using easy made up numbers) the GVM of the vehicle is 2000KG of which 500KG is NET payload. I can now still have a 150KG ball load.

    IF I want to put 200Kg on the ball.

    I have 2000Kg GVM of which 450KG can be net load and then have my 200KG ball load.
    Dave I appreciate your input, but you must have missed the GVM definition..

    Gross Vehicle Mass (GVM)

    The maximum weight indicated by the manufacturer that all the wheels in the tow vehicle can support. It includes the weights of the car, the passengers, and other things loaded in the car. When the vehicle is attached to a trailer, it includes the tow ball mass.

    Sorry, but there is no allowance of any tow ball mass in Land Rover or any manufacturers GVM figures... its all wishful thinking.... If you load your D4 with people and accessories up to GVM, you will not legally be able to tow anything... even a trailer with a 10kg tow ball mass will take you over from a legal perspective..

    Cheers

    David



  2. #62
    Join Date
    Nov 2018
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    Melbourne
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    Quote Originally Posted by Disco-tastic View Post
    Hi David, just noting in your first post that youve subtracted an extra 350kg from your payload. Your reduced GVM of 3040kg already accounts for the 350kg ball weight.

    You will need to check the rear axle weight is not above the limit.

    Cheers

    Dan
    Thanks Dan, but I am even more certain now that my calculations are correct.. no manufacturer includes any tow ball weight in their stated GVM. If you add a trailer with ball weight of 350kgs then you have eaten into that GVM by 350kgs, thereby reducing the available payload for passengers and equipment... I think the reason Land rover reduce the GVM for large ball weights is to protect the rear axle and suspension...

    Gross Vehicle Mass (GVM)

    The maximum weight indicated by the manufacturer that all the wheels in the tow vehicle can support. It includes the weights of the car, the passengers, and other things loaded in the car. When the vehicle is attached to a trailer, it includes the tow ball mass.
    Cheers

    David

  3. #63
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by tapda01 View Post
    Dave I appreciate your input, but you must have missed the GVM definition..[/SIZE]

    [/FONT][/COLOR][/LEFT]
    Really specifically I didn't in no short part because my drivers license says HC and not C (auto) or C (int)

    Also really certain I can read a manual and follow the guidelines as well as the maths, the ADR's the Roadrules the NHVL regulations and any other number of things that might be really useful for a Truck driving crane operating Plant/Truck mechanic Ex ADF driving instructor to know.

    Just to put it in perspective...

    You want to use a vehicle thats 3 generations ahead of and 20 years newer than the vehicle I would use to tow bigger things legally and even newer than the vehicle that I would (and have) use willingly to do the same thing. you have more HP, more Torque, better everything comfort wise and more electronics on board than the space shuttle.

    you screwed up GCM and GVM in the opening post and even after most of the people here trying to help you out and point you in the right direction Dont want to accept the vehicle is the definition of a near perfect tow motor because you want to argue semantics based around the simplicity of youve screwed your maths from the get go in the same way as the "I can prove I have 11 fingers" trick works, just backwards.

    you do you.

    you know If I was a betting man... I'd almost bet that part of your total weight includes a generator.
    Dave

    "In a Landrover the other vehicle is your crumple zone."

    For spelling call Rogets, for mechanicing call me.

    Fozzy, 2.25D SIII Ex DCA Ute
    TDI D1(parting/ed)
    Tdi autoManual d1 (Kept it for the girlfriend)
    Archaeopteryx 1990 6x6 dual cab(This things staying)


    If you've benefited from one or more of my posts please remember, your taxes paid for my skill sets, I'm just trying to make sure you get your monies worth.
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  4. #64
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    just to assure you..

    YouTube

    YouTube

    nahh, not a chance could it tow your van completely useless for towing. Give it to me, go buy a toyota.
    Dave

    "In a Landrover the other vehicle is your crumple zone."

    For spelling call Rogets, for mechanicing call me.

    Fozzy, 2.25D SIII Ex DCA Ute
    TDI D1(parting/ed)
    Tdi autoManual d1 (Kept it for the girlfriend)
    Archaeopteryx 1990 6x6 dual cab(This things staying)


    If you've benefited from one or more of my posts please remember, your taxes paid for my skill sets, I'm just trying to make sure you get your monies worth.
    If you think you're in front on the deal, pay it forwards.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by tapda01 View Post
    Thanks Steve, I agree with you 100%, to which end I took D4 to weighbridge to get actual figures today as my starting point.

    Cheers

    David
    Weigh bridge weights is the only way to go.....good start

    I lot of good info in this thread, take some time and read....

    Was your D4 in touring mode when you went over the bridge??

    Might be helpful to start posting your weight each time you go over the weigh bridge......

    The whole included tow ball weight in GVM has come up before...the way I read it is they assume your towing with 150tow ball weight.

    I normally focus on the following weights in this order

    Drive onto weight bridge with caravan in tow with everything you normally take including food.

    Grab front axle weight as you driving on

    Stop when just the car is on the bridge and note car weight with trailer connected, this will give you car weight including tow ball

    Drop jockey wheel and take weight off tow ball, now you just have car weight, take this away from the weight above and you have towball weight

    Drop hitch back onto ball and roll forward, note total weight of combination.

    Drive forward and weight trailer only....to confirm above numbers.

    The only real way is taking time on a weigh bridge.

    Post all these up, pretty sure there is a weigh in thread, most wouldn’t lost as they are over. Easy for me as we have a weigh bridge at work.

    On previous trips
    Defender, I only ever exceeded front axle weight
    Hi-lux, regularly exceeded rear axle and GVM

    Yeah before everybody jumps on the band wagon at least I knew my weights, 90% of those on the road prefer not to know.

    Off to sit in on COR Training, doubt we will be talking caravans....but you never know.

    2000 110 Hardtop

  6. #66
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    I'm NOT an expert at this, and my Defender is way under the limits when towing our camper, and I don't own a D4, so tell me if this is wrong, but the way I read the D4 information was:
    It includes a 75kg driver and fuel
    It includes 150kg towball weight
    That can be increased to 350kg, but the amount above 150 has to be taken off the vehicle
    Is that correct?
    I also think in one of the links above it said the D4 was better for towing than everything except a Troopy.
    2009 Defender 110 2.4. ARB bulbar, Ironman winch, Safari snorkel, Steinbauer chip, AP HD clutch, Lightforce spots, larger tank, Off Road Systems drawer, Traxide 160 controller, Tekonsha brakes, Mulgo seat runners, Uniden UHF, Nuggetstuff seat corners, breathers, Polaris GPS.

  7. #67
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    Reading my D4 (2010) manual you can increase GVW by 100kg when towing if speed does not exceed 100km/h.

    "Note: When towing, the maximum permissible
    Gross Vehicle Weight can be increased by a
    maximum of 100 kg (220 lbs) provided that the
    road speed is limited to 100 km/h (60 mph)."
    Fuji white RRS L494 AB

  8. #68
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    We bought a small 2T New Age single axle van, and having done the weights of the D3 and the van, we would have to be carrying a pile of Bessa bricks in one or either to exceed the weights.
    I just find it interesting that 40 years ago, you could hook up a twin axle Millard van on the back of of the Kingswood and drive around Australia.
    I know all this safety stuff is important but I sometimes wonder how we managed to survive in the 60's and 70's to get to where we are now.
    Sorry for the thread drift.

    Quote Originally Posted by tapda01 View Post
    Hi Alan, its not actually very complicated and the Math is simple. My guess is that any 4x4 with the usual off road accessories trying to tow a mid sized caravan or bigger with family on board is probably exceeding their Gross Vehicle Weight. I think this will push us towards the lighter European vans in the future so that one can once again just hook the van on the back as you suggest. I was hoping to do just that but after the event did my due diligence.... and my impression is that I am not alone....

    Cheers

    David
    2006 Disco 3, 4L V6 Petrol SE
    No 5 Trailer ARN 177-295
    SOLD Engineers Trailer - no id
    SOLD RAAF 231194 Perentie 110 GS - SIR ANGUS

  9. #69
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    I just find it interesting that 40 years ago, you could hook up a twin axle Millard van on the back of of the Kingswood and drive around Australia.
    I know all this safety stuff is important but I sometimes wonder how we managed to survive in the 60's and 70's to get to where we are now.
    Sorry for the thread drift.[/QUOTE]

    Ha Ha , back in the 60s 70s you could load a Kingswood until its arse was nearly dragging on the ground and the old caravans were not all that heavy , that and the fact people did not drive like they were all late for brain surgery made for a much more pleasurable and safe trip .

  10. #70
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Location
    Lilydale, Melbourne
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    I’ve been reading this thread with interest. I think your issue is with your van, not your tow vehicle. Before retiring my wife worked in a well known caravan repair business and her comment was that it was rare to see any van with a 350kg ball weight, or anything near it. Most tow hitches have a maximum towball weight considerably less than that.
    I would suggest that you pay close attention to the way the van is loaded, starting first with getting weighing your van empty and comparing that weight with the Gross Trailer Mass on your van compliance plate. That will tell you what weight you can add to the van in the way of water, food, clothing and other random stuff you want to take. Then when you load the van keep those things you load central and low. Never put anything at the rear of the van to rear of the van to reduce your towball weight as you could end up with a very unstable situation, as described in that YouTube video referred to earlier with that little model car and trailer.
    The other thing you will need to watch is your rear axle load on the Disco as 350kg on the towball coverts to 350+kg on the back axle. I posted the calculation earlier in this thread. (Sorry my car is in for service today so I can’t measure the distance from the centre of the back wheels to the towball to do the calculation).
    Gross Vehicle Mass (GVM) is what it says it is, the absolute maximum weight the car can be, regardless of where you put the weight, and the Gross Combination Mass (GCM) likewise.
    From what you have already said in a number of your responses you clearly understand this...
    so best to go to a weighbridge, get the figures and keep it simple.
    The Disco is an eminently capable tow vehicle but only up to the weight limits set by Land Rover. If your van exceeds those weights then I reckon you need to rethink your tow vehicle. Doesn’t mean the car is not “fit for service”.
    cheers,
    David

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