Replacing cranking and yellow top battery with Lithium's?

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16th November 2020, 10:55 PM
gavinwibrow

Quote:

Originally Posted by drivesafe

Hi Gavin and as the second battery actually sounds like it might have been overcharged, to cause the cracking, just maybe, this is the reason for the potential failure of the other battery.

Also a bit strange for solar panels being upside down to be the cause of any problems. specially over such a short time period.

Do you know what the operating voltage settings are for your solar regulator?

As for the Bosch batteries. At a settled voltage of 12.6v. That is actually pretty good and indicates an SoC of around 95%.

Sorry for the confusion Tim, when I said upside down I meant the solar receptors were underneath /flat on the ground = no charging.

I'll check on the technical details of the MTTP of my solar panels in the next few days and report back. I thought this unit could not overcharge, but ....

Many thanks for the RRC 12.6V clarification. I'm sure others will note with interest/gladness
19th November 2020, 08:54 AM
AndyG

Hope this is not topic, but where do Lead Crystal batteries fit into the mix, as house batteries.
19th November 2020, 09:12 AM
drivesafe

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndyG

where do Lead Crystal batteries fit into the mix, as house batteries.

Hi Andy, shortly after Lead Crystal batteries first came on the market, I got involved with the importer and also started selling them.

I very quickly realised that these batteries had to be charged in a very specific way and while it was achievable, it was not going to be easily done by most potential users, so I stopped selling them.

A good while after this, the quality of the batteries took a nose dive and they became almost impossible to recharge properly.

There is a lot more to the Lead Crystal battery saga but in short, if you already have the original batteries and can charge them properly, they will most likely out last lead acid batteries by a long way.

If you are considering buying new LC batteries, in short, DON’T. There are serious problems with them, and problems that can not be addressed.
19th November 2020, 12:44 PM
Bagoo76

You ask for facts

Quote:

Originally Posted by drivesafe

Hi Dave and there is some very good advantages to using lithium batteries in caravans but it still comes back to whether a user is actually going to get the benefit of the advantages lithium’s offer over conventional batteries.

This is why everyone considering caravan use and more specifically battery use in these caravans, needs to do a lot of research about what they will personally gain or potentially loose, by swapping to lithium batteries.

People are unlikely to “loose” by going to lithium’s from a usage prospective, but their pockets could take a seriously huge hit with no real gain, and this is where people need to look hard at what they actually want from their battery setup.

The biggest single problem I see for someone trying to decide whether to make the change is the incredible amount of misleading info out there about lithium battery capabilities.

The amount of times “individuals” make claims about ”how much better” their system now works since they changed to lithium batteries, when in actual fact, they have gained no real advantage and the change has actually done nothing more than make them “feel Good”.

There needs to be far more True data based discussion on this subject so people considering the potential of changing, can get a realistic idea of whether a change is to their specific advantage.

You ask for facts, here’s one for example: LiefePo4 is incredibly more effective at absorbing current, therefore the battery bank is able to replenish itself much quicker than the lead acid. This makes a huge difference.
19th November 2020, 02:08 PM
drivesafe

Hi Bagoo76 and “if” you have a lithium battery that can take high current charging, sure you are correct.

But the very same thing applies to lead acid batteries.

I always instruct my customers to use high current recharging batteries, like Yellowtops and SSB HVT series batteries, or any cranking battery, as their auxiliary battery.

This allows both the cranking battery and auxiliary battery to take every thing the alternator can produce.

And note, this allows the correct lead acid batteries to charge just as fast as some special lithium batteries can be charged, but the lead acid batteries cost a fraction of the price of these special lithium batteries.

Also note, my isolators have been exploiting high current recharging for over thirty years now, so the principal is well and truely established, but lithium batteries have only been capable of this type of charging for a short time. We just have to wait and see if it is viable long term.
19th November 2020, 02:52 PM
Tombie

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bagoo76

You ask for facts, here’s one for example: LiefePo4 is incredibly more effective at absorbing current, therefore the battery bank is able to replenish itself much quicker than the lead acid. This makes a huge difference.

Gday Nick,

In some versions you are very correct. Not all have such high inrush capability. Hence why most DcDc units only run around 25a - most LiFePo4 are around 20 amp.

With the research being thrown into the tech at the moment there are some interesting developments ahead.
19th November 2020, 03:24 PM
W&KO

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tombie

Gday Nick,

In some versions you are very correct. Not all have such high inrush capability. Hence why most DcDc units only run around 25a - most LiFePo4 are around 20 amp.

With the research being thrown into the tech at the moment there are some interesting developments ahead.

I agree that you need to check lithium battery charge rates along with discharge. Although my research indicates that most take a higher rate than 20ah. The pic I posted at the start of the thread indicates this as well.

Either way

top of my list was discharge rate where I needed 200ah which I found
Second on my list was charge rate, mine accepts 60ah which I was happy enough with.

40 DC-DC and separate solar going into the battery. Generally get around 50 going in while driving. I’ve always been back at 100% before next destination is reached. Hang on, once I haven’t but it was a short drive home and solar had me back at 100 quick enough.
19th November 2020, 04:07 PM
AndyG

Quote:

Originally Posted by drivesafe

Hi Andy, shortly after Lead Crystal batteries first came on the market, I got involved with the importer and also started selling them.

I very quickly realised that these batteries had to be charged in a very specific way and while it was achievable, it was not going to be easily done by most potential users, so I stopped selling them.

A good while after this, the quality of the batteries took a nose dive and they became almost impossible to recharge properly.

There is a lot more to the Lead Crystal battery saga but in short, if you already have the original batteries and can charge them properly, they will most likely out last lead acid batteries by a long way.

If you are considering buying new LC batteries, in short, DON’T. There are serious problems with them, and problems that can not be addressed.

Thanks that is very interesting
19th November 2020, 08:43 PM
outback traveller

Lithiums in a Kimberly Karavan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Briar

Background.

The AGM's in my caravan are getting down and looking at replacing them with Lithiums. When researching, I came across DCS batteries which seem pretty good quality and Australian made.

They are selling cranking and dual battery systems for vehicles as well. Some reviews that the system seems to work well. As I'm coming up to 7 years old on my original OEM battery and 5 years on the Traxide, Yellow top, just getting info about swapping both out for Lithium.

If the D4 is not run for a few days I get the low battery message when opening the car, but after 7 years am thinking I don't want to push it and have the main cranking battery cark it while I'm in the bush somewhere.

DCS on one of their webpages shows 2 x 75 Ah Lithium installed in a D4. However, this is with a Redarc or Victron isolator system I think which is what DCS flog off.

So 2 questions, mainly.

1) Has anyone done this, ie, replace the OEM or traxide battery with Lithiums? Any reviews here about that?
2) How would 2 appropriate size batteries go with the Traxide system. DCS claim pretty much "drop in" but am wary about this. Any comment from Tim?

Reason for considering this- Batteries are getting on and I'll end up saving about 40kg of weight which is not to be sneezed at.

Link to DCS page showing dual system in D4 including cranking battery.

Thanks
Trevor
Ultimate DCS 12V 200Ah Dual Battery Setup (Lithium)

G'day Briar
I have a 2014 Kimberley Karavan with 4 x 120Ah Lithium Iron Phosphate Batteries fed by 550W from solar panels and discharged through a 120A Enerdrive inverter/charger. This was a first generation lithium battery installation from Kimberley.

The system has been a success but lessons were learnt along the way.

Initially, I had a problem with the batteries flattening quickly when the Karavan was at home. This turned out to be a 3A phantom power drain from the large inverter/charger which, according to the original Kimberley manual, could be left on. Leaving this inverter/charger on but not in use would drain the batteries within the monthy recharging cycle initially recommended by Kimberley.

The problem was simply solved by turning the inverter/charger off when not in use.

Once the batteries drain to where their onboard safety circuitry cuts in, they cannot be recharged using the standard charging system. Instead, I had to use the extra charge wire attached to each battery to trickle charge that battery with a ‘dumb’ charger. Intelligent chargers with various charging modes did not activate the emergency charging circuitry in the batteries. Instead, I found the best way to do this was to use an old 12V/1A phone charger to get the battery voltage high enough to deactivate the failsafe circuitry and then finish the charging with a larger battery charger.

I had the batteries go flat once again when I had the Kimberley serviced and the repairer left the inverter/charger turned on.

Kimberley also advised owners to turn down the maximum charging rate outputted by the inverter/charger when connected to 240V from the factory set 80A to 40A.

Kimberley has changed their Lithium battery installation over time and now use larger capacity batteries to reduce the number of batteries wired in parallel. The control circuitry for these batteries is now external and connected to all charging sources so balancing charge/discharge rates between batteries is coordinated. This is important because it prevents a failing cell from pulling down the voltage of the other batteries wired in parallel.

A major factor for me in choosing the lithium battery option for my caravan was the weight saving over the tow hitch.

Modern caravans with all their options and with full water tanks are often pushing the legal limits of their tow vehicles. I put my trip prepared D4 and Kimberley Karavan on a weigh bridge and was amazed to find that I was 600Kg over my legal AGM. I subsequently weighed every piece of recovery gear and other equipment I carried on trips and over time have rationalised it to ensure my rig is now legal.

The weight saving in lithium batteries is significant, especially if the batteries are mounted at the front of the van and therefore contribute directly to weight over the tow hitch.

Paul

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