RRS 3.0 blowing smoke (lots of it)

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Originally Posted by Disco4SE

My query with a re-map or chip, is how much time would you spend over and above the engines recommended parameters.

For instance, if you are towing (or not) at 100 Kph, the re-map / chip would rarely be used. It would only be for that burst when you are overtaking etc I would imagine.

Providing that you aren't on boost the whole time, I can't see that the extra power / torque would do any damage, especially given that the engine is de-tuned to begin with.

Cheers, Craig

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The remap vs chip thing. In the early days ECU's weren't reprogrammable, so performance changes involved unsoldering the factory chip and soldering in a new one.
This isn't done any more.

Tuning boxes vs remaps are the current ways of doing it. Tuning boxes plug in between the engine sensors and ecu to trick the ecu into holding injectors open longer. These are generally working on fuel rail pressure and should be avoided.
Remaps involve pulling the original configuration files out of the ECU and altering the maps inside and then reloading the altered file back into the ECU. This is the only sane way to do it, but how good the results are depends on how good the tuner is and how much they know about the engine, the turbochargers, the vehicle and it's use.

How often are you using the extra torque of a remap? Every time you accelerate more than gently, every open road hill and every time you tow. The air/fuel maps are usually changed in a remap which means even at cruise your engine could be running hotter exhaust temps.
It all depends on who tuned the remap and what they think is a good idea.

Modern diesel engines are on boost pretty much the whole time, idle is the only time they aren't. Who told you they are detuned?

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Originally Posted by Dougal

I'm not talking about the SC petrol engines, I don't have any interest in those. I'm talking specifically about the turbocharged diesels.

My point is, the guys who are remapping these do not have the knowledge to make the call that their modifications are safe. They are simply putting the risk on the customer and using them as their beta-testers. This is fine as long as the customer knows this.

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But are you talking about (and have experience with) the 3.0 ltr LR diesel? Or are you referring to the older TD5/TDI motors?

And I would trust Pete Bell from Bell Auto Sevices to know far more about the torque/power limits of _any_ LR motor than you're implying. BAS map LR's for racing, Sahara treks etc. Maybe you should talk to him (he's on here occasionally) and see if you get any "blank stares"? Not all tuners are the same, as I've said - with caution you can get someone who knows what they're talking about.

And no, a reputable remap does NOT affect the read/write count of the ECU. They've got around the encryption.

Cheers,

Gordon

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Originally Posted by 400HPONGAS

Hmm ,lots of conjecture !
GGhaggis,how about you bring your RRS 3 Litre down to the Kwinana Motorplex on a "Whoop ass Wednesday" We can set up either yours or mine Torque plus/OBD2 readers and map exactly the times/speeds on regarding boost/fuel pressures.The accel / braking generated G's also works spot on (and with the GPS check the 60ft/1000Ft )What do the manufacturers claim for a 1/4 mile time for a D4 and a RRS ?
The vehicles will be weighed accurately before and after testing
The point should be how well against a known standard does your vehicle perform,not necessarily what difference do performance modification make.(probably establish 2 Launch strategies ,eg sport and and standard drive)
Be good to Have "DORKO" there as well as he has been down the Chip it path.
MOROSO says at 2.5 Ton and 253HP = 17.14 @ 78.5 MPH ,at 3 ton 18.22 73.9mph

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Nice idea, but my car is no longer standard (oversize tyres, roof-rack, protection plates, multiple batteries etc etc), so the comparison wouldn't be valid.

When it was closer to std, I ran a 0-100 kph sprint at the RAC track. Average of 4 runs was 8.5s, best was 8.1 (cf 9.3s for std vehicle) - that was on mud tyres, 255/55R19.

Cheers,

Gordon

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Originally Posted by Dougal

Who told you they are detuned?

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I was told by a very well known and respected Gentlemen in Melbourne whom has been part of Landrover for about 50 years.

For instance, the same motor in the Jag puts out 200Kw compared to the Discovery 180Kw.

Its pretty common knowledge that all modern engines are not tuned to thier absolute maximium.

Cheers, Craig

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Originally Posted by Disco4SE

I was told by a very well known and respected Gentlemen in Melbourne whom has been part of Landrover for about 50 years.

For instance, the same motor in the Jag puts out 200Kw compared to the Discovery 180Kw.

Its pretty common knowledge that all modern engines are not tuned to thier absolute maximium.

Cheers, Craig

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That's the safety margin I mentioned earlier. When tuned to "the absolute maximum" there is no safety margin and reliability approaches zero.

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Originally Posted by gghaggis

But are you talking about (and have experience with) the 3.0 ltr LR diesel? Or are you referring to the older TD5/TDI motors?

And I would trust Pete Bell from Bell Auto Sevices to know far more about the torque/power limits of _any_ LR motor than you're implying. BAS map LR's for racing, Sahara treks etc. Maybe you should talk to him (he's on here occasionally) and see if you get any "blank stares"? Not all tuners are the same, as I've said - with caution you can get someone who knows what they're talking about.

And no, a reputable remap does NOT affect the read/write count of the ECU. They've got around the encryption.

Cheers,

Gordon

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I'm talking general terms. I haven't remapped any LR diesel, my LR diesel is purely mechanical. My EFI diesels are a different make.
At least with the TD5 and 200/300TDi the compressor maps were available.

I'm aware of BAS's work and yes I would trust their remaps more than other aftermarket tuners. But the complete knowledge set for a tune won't be known outside JLR and their engine development contractors.

The encryption in ECU's is two levels. One is to get at the configuration file, the other is the checksums on the file which is required to be correct before the ECU will accept the new file. The read/write count is different again, they may have a way around it, but most tuners don't. I see their website says "In some cases " and "most diagnostic reading tools cannot tell it has ever been tuned".

They talk about up to 285hp (210kw) and 700Nm from a 3.0 TDV6 with just the remap.
There is no free lunch, the exta 30kw and 100Nm adds to either or both of higher EGT's and higher boost (depending on how it is done), it also puts higher loads through the driveline.

Those changes may give you no problems at all. But there is a higher risk of failure involved with all those parts.
The OP has a remap and a blown small turbo.

We basically agree - be aware of the dangers of remaps. But I took issue with your generalisation of all tuners returning a "blank stare" - not all tuners are alike.

My experience is with the TDV6 engines, and yes I'm well aware of the encryption routines used in the Bosch ECU's.

You should note also, that the 3 ltr TDV6 has inbuilt EGT sensors and will trigger a reduced engine performance if you exceed the set temps.

This of course, does not make the car immune to greater wear, so as you say, "no free lunch". But it's not all as doom-and-gloom as you're portraying.

Cheers,

Gordon

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Originally Posted by gghaggis

We basically agree - be aware of the dangers of remaps. But I took issue with your generalisation of all tuners returning a "blank stare" - not all tuners are alike.

My experience is with the TDV6 engines, and yes I'm well aware of the encryption routines used in the Bosch ECU's.

You should note also, that the 3 ltr TDV6 has inbuilt EGT sensors and will trigger a reduced engine performance if you exceed the set temps.

This of course, does not make the car immune to greater wear, so as you say, "no free lunch". But it's not all as doom-and-gloom as you're portraying.

Cheers,

Gordon

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Pretty much what I was trying to get across.
Well said Gordon.

Cheers, Craig

I'm good at doom and gloom.:D

Cheers
Dougal

P.S. The current crop of VAG tdi's are also running what looks like EGT sensors, likely the same or similar bosch control scheme. The EGT is a necessary part of the DPF burn-off which not all vehicles currently have, but all seem to have the capability.

Mmmm. All food for thought. I got the car back last Friday after the new turbo was installed, and assumed everything would be back to normal. And it was, for a day or two.
Then, yesterday I was leaving work for the 1.5km drive home. It takes me up a reasonably steep hill pretty much straight out of the office, so I gave it a bit of stick - maybe 2,800rpm - and yup, there was that cloud of blue smoke again.

I wondered whether this might have something to do with living so close to the office, and the car isn't warming up sufficiently. But I don't think it can be that either - I was towing my trailer boat (about 1.2tonne all up) home from the boat ramp on Sunday and pulled out to pass a slow car on the freeway at about 80kph and it blew smoke then too. And it was well and truly warmed up by then.

Yes, it IS the same engine, albeit detuned from 200kw down to 180, as used in the XF Jaguar. The remapping takes it back up to about 200kw I believe, and 667nm from the original 600. I have contacted the remapping people - they assure me it cannot be the remap, but I think it's time to reverse it, for safety's sake.

How many km have you done since the turbo swap?
It can take some time to burn out residual oil in the exhaust and other places following a turbo failure.