Td6 5L40E Options

Guys, can I ask for a summary?

The suggestion is;

• getting hold of a 5L50E
• Using the internals of the 5L50E to rebuild the current box. With
• A new output shaft
• & Sonnax valve body

There’s mention of HD clutch packs and TC, are these part of the donor 5L50 or new parts? If they are new, how smooth will the Trans shift given the valves & body was designed for the standard clutches?

Is it worth making changes now before trouble starts? – As Peter suggested, can we replace the valve body? Can it be done with out removing the box? From what I read, most failures come from the valve body, upgrade that and the transmission will be exponentially more reliable – or is this not correct.

My truck now has 160ks, trans has been serviced twice (first at 110), both times reported as clean with 1st having “a very low amount of debris, far less than average”. It runs very nicely. However, I know, like the rest of you that the day will come, especially with my 500+nm reflash. Also interested to see how Gav fares after his rebuild. Thought about the option of 6 speed manual with Gav but I’m too lazy to operate a clutch these days… I plan on keeping this truck for a while, several reasons but mainly, there’s nothing else that I like for similar $ (including D3, not really a fan), & the TD6 variant compared to models with Terrain Response is more viable to keep / repair in the long term - Our trans issues are small compared to the complexity and possibility of the TR playing up in 10 yrs time – everything is integrated on an optical network, let alone basics like having to dismantle the entire front end of the car to change a basic thing like an alternator. Add to that 18inch wheels for scratching dirty stuff.

So this conversation is good. I too would be open to collecting the necessary parts now, I’m just getting a little confused with all the mechanical talk – it’s not in Binary.

A bit OT here, but I thought it could be tacked onto this conversation. I have been doing a bit of research on the transfer case on these - the NV225. My main reason for this, is that I am trying to find out if the NV225 will bolt straight onto the 5 (or 6) speed manual box from the X5. The X5 runs the NV125 box (single speed) but the inputs look similar and I'm trying to get a definitive answer on this.

Anyhow, I have been struggling to find any real info on the company that built them - New Venture Gear. After a bit af reasearch I found that they were formed in 1999 as a joint venture between Chrysler and GM. In 2003 GM sold its share to Damlier Chrysler and they became the sole owner. They were then in turn bought out by Magna International, and this branch of the buisiness is now called Magna Powertrain - a large global manufactuer for the vehicle industry. Check them out - About Magna Powertrain | Magna International Inc. | Magna International Inc.

So, as nothing exists on the net any more about NVG, I have emailed Magna to see if they can shed any light on my enquiries. I'll post the results, but I'm not holding my breath. I may have to find an NV125 at a wreckers and measure everthing up if I have no luck here.

Cheers - Gav

Harlie
I'll try and detail what I have learnt regarding these autos, and thanks for explaining the electronic side of things. I can follow basic auto electrics, but when it comes to the electronics and Canbus etc. I'm a babe in the woods.

1. The gearbox LR used in the L322 is a combination of the 5L40E and the 5L50E, if you read RRPhil's gearbox teardown it shows you that it has the bigger clutch plates etc. of the 5L50E. It appears LR wanted to beef it up a little , but were restricted by their NV225 transfer case specifications. The output shaft on 5L40E has 27 splines while the 5L50E has 31 splines. The planetary gears on the 5L50E were hardened. The main shafts also are of a different length.

2. The only way to know would be to teardown a 5L50E and compare it side by side with the 5L40E. RRPhil is hoping to get one and will write the details up when he’s done the comparison; time frame is open at this stage. I have e-mailed him and are awaiting a reply.

3. The new H/D output shaft is a sensible upgrade, especially if you are going to chip the engine.

4. The Sonnax valve body is a must, but remember Sonnax state that the pump is the main culprit for the start of low oil pressure. They have a kit for the pump also, and highly recommend the replacement of the pressure regulator solenoid with the Borg Warner unit. Some US rebuilders also offer modified pumps.

As a side note the valve body specifications for the L322 are different to the BMW X5 and have different part numbers !!!

5. http://www.sonnax.com/downloads/valv...-GM-5L40-E.pdf

The Torque Converter is also a big problem, every article I have read and seen details of, show a lot of degradation of the clutch plates, as seen in the teardown article. A heavy duty TC is a must have item.
Again the L322 version is different specification to the X5 !!!

6. The standard GM clutch plates are crap and are prone to flex under pressure. The 2nd clutch pack has a very tight tolerance, and is one of the first major casualties of low oil pressure. As seen in the teardown article.

7. I wouldn’t just change the valve body as chances are you will be just putting off the rebuild to a later date; as usually the torque converter is already on the way out when the valve body starts to show problems. And there is always the chance of debris causing more trouble. Some owners have got over 200,000 klm with no trouble others under 90k, so it’s pot luck. Put parts aside for the rebuild when it comes or do it when you what to boost the HP significantly.

8. Personally I would fit purpose built oil – cooler for peace of mind.


I hope this helps, if you have any questions just let me know.

Laurie

This was posted by RRPhil and just goes to show how GM LR & BMW knew of the lubrication problems of this box and the Torque Converter was under specd !!! instead of insisting on changing the valve bodies and T/C lock-up clutch to a more durable metal and a heavier duty clutch they chose to hide the problem.

" The fact that this transmission started life in BMWs using Dexron III fluid, which subsequently changed to Texamatic 7045E in the L322 and then ETL 8072B in the later BMWs and now finally Dexron VI (though 7045E is still Land Rover's recommendation) could be seen as an attempt to tweak the formulation of the fluid to reduce this premature wear in the aluminium blocks

I am very wary of ‘re-manufactured’ L322 5L40-E transmissions. Did they simply re-manufacture the torque converter to fix the worn LUC, replace any other failed components, clean everything out and stick the transmission back together again? If so, they haven’t fixed the root cause because the clutch control pressures will still be low as the re-used valve blocks are still worn and the whole cycle will start again – but quicker this time. Maybe not quick enough, though, that the re-manufacturer manages to get through his warranty period first!

The only lasting cure is either to replace the blocks with new ones or to fit the Sonnax kits "


I suppose many as myself are asking if you have done all the mods can you now use Dexron VI ?? I'll ask Phil and get his opinion, to those who don't know Phil is a expert on rebuilding LR ZF auto's at home for British Forum members.

Laurie

I was talking to the people at Austra Torque Engineering today

sales@ateconverters.com.au

03 9466 1563

After an initial discussion on a heavy duty torque converter for the 5L4OE, I was told that GM had used a batch of badly bonded clutch plates in the converters. This explanation would explain the TC clutch failures that have puzzled many. Over time these have prematurely degraded and sent debris into the oil, thus contaminating the valve body, oil-lines and cooler. Their experience has been mainly with VE Commodores etc. but the failures are consistent to the troubles seen in the L322 & BMW's both here and Europe.
They don't have a Heavy Duty Low Stall converter for the 5L40E as they have found the newer versions of the clutch plates work fine in the Commodores.; but they offered the following deal, unfortunately I can't use it as I'm not in Melbourne.
They are prepared to build a Td6 heavy duty version with the following components;

Austra Torque Engineering - Low-Stall

the build would include a 3 plate clutch setup, giving a minimum 300% increase in holding torque, and a input torque rating of over 500 lb/ft. The cost would be $500, usually the price for this setup is over $900 !!! this would be a R&D deal with them, so as they can judge the setup and performance, and modify if needed.
Hence a Melb member would be ideal.
Testbook, autologic etc availabilty would be a benefit.
I told them of others having these problems, and would let them know about the offer so first in, best dressed.

I have no association with ATE, the offer came from a phone inquiry.

Laurie

I just wanted to add my few cents as am the bloke who rebuilt Gav's Transmissions. I know there where lots of issues with his box but it was a real can of worm's and you cant put that down to the design of the transmission. Gav was not to know what he bought nor did i know what he was sending me. Someone who had a very hard time with gav's transmission before i received it and i think it was due to lack of knowledge & care. Im sure gav wont have any issues if he services it every 20,000kms as i have built many of these and only come back due to faulty parts.

Now back on topic,

I have read the RRPhil's Post and his findings are spot on. The alloy is very weak where the pump and Valves operate. Sonnax offer some fixes but there is thousands of dollars in tooling to buy plus they don't do all valves.

The pump is a complete write off if it test faulty i throw it away. I always install a Sonnax boost valve as it does help line rise.

The valvebody can be fine or it can be completely stuffed. I do fix the but only for Holdens or BMW sedans.

Gav's has a AC-Delco Re-Man valve body which is possibly new as they don't repair if it fails there test bench (I was lucky i had one saved). His box also has a new stator from the rebuild before he bought the car. It had Zero leak on all valves so it must have been from a Holden as they are similar.

The common fault from with clutches is the piston seals go hard and then leak pressure causing the clutch to burn. The Forward or Coast are common as Forward is on all the time while driving except in 5th gear. 5th gear is also a fault as it is in my opinion the weakest clutch pack in the 5L40E with only 2 plates each inner & outer Teeth and they are about 4mm wide friction area.

Now what i mostly see is transmissions that have been rebuilt and then failed due to some problem that has not been seen, fixed correctly or faulty part installed.

Machining of the Pump

The 1st is the Pump Machining. As the pump Rotor & Vanes are in the bell housing it needs to be machined when they wear which 90% of the time they are. The stator section of the pump also wears and needs to be machined. Most Important Once those surfaces are done the overall case depth & pump/bell housing height (From O-Ring Face) need to be calculated with the pump gasket/rubber seal thickness added to the pump height.

EG: Pump/gasket height 46mm minus 47mm case depth leaves 1mm gap due to machining of the stator & bell housing.

The surface of the bell housing that the o-ring sits and meets the case needs to be machined 1mm to allow the gasket to make contact and alloy the pump pressure & clutch pack pressure get to where it needs to go and not bleeding off between a 1mm gap.

Valve Bodys & Pump Stator Valves.

I covered this above but not every shop has the equipment to test this stuff. The only give the valve a flick is a thing on the past and if you cant test it replace it with a new one.

Aftermarket Parts.

The clutch pistons are steel with molded rubber seals so to change the clutch piston seals you need to change the pistons. The aftermarket pistons go hard and shrink it may take a few Kms but i have had a run of rebuilt boxes missing gears due to the piston not even trying to apply.

Torque Converter.

I have spent many hours scratching my head as to why the lock up plates fail like they do. My personal opinion is the timing and the pressure application under certain conditions. What happens is the lockup lining falls off all at once over a short period of time. The plate still applies and which then brings the metal to metal. I have tested a no lockup plate and the computer know its not there so it limp modes with ratio codes.

The time from the plate falling off to the time filter block's to the time a DTC code is set is all with in a short time. Wear in the pump and valve body are more than likely to blame but we are talking chunks of plate 2mm thick some times the size of a 5 cent piece.

My Conclusion

• Don't buy a range rover that has had the transmission rebuilt recently. ;)
• If you do get a rebuild buy a ATSG book and give it to the rebuilder with a bookmark on the page that explains pump machining.
• Don't trust aftermarket pistons (Buy in Genuine pistons from overseas).
• If the rebuilder can't test valve leakage request a new stator (Buy from Holden) and a valve body which is rebuilt and tested on a Test bench. (Thay are available here is Australia.)
• Converter must have a carbon lock up plate fitted with the latest's Glue available (Similar plate to supercharges 6 commodore converters).
• PWR 255x280x19 Oil Cooler, I have fitted one to a 2003 Range Rover Sport that Tows most of the time and i tested with horses loaded and temps where fine on scan tool. I used the 1/2" Hose from box to cooler which was mounted in the front behind one of the fans it was not a bad fit even local rover specialist was impressed.
• Recommended Fluid - If the oil manufacture recommends then use it. I currently use Valvoline Maxlife or there Dexron 6.

Future Plans.

As it's hard to buy genuine pistons i am now going to start using Brand New Cadillac transmissions i recently fitted one to a mates VZ and its looking to be more viable to buy in Brand new boxes than rebuild them. A box ready to go for a Range Rover or BMW X5 would be about $5000 + Converter Rebuild.

The bell housing, extension housing, output shaft and sump would be original Range Rover/BMW X5 but all the other parts would be brand new.

5L50E Opinion

I have never seen one but if the only difference is the gear set then its not worth the trouble as i have never seen a gear set fail. Late Holden and Caddy boxes have more clutch plates so that's a bonus with the new boxes.

6L80E Opinion

Don't touch with a 10ft pole the electronic shifting program on these is terrible i have complaints from new car owners all the time. If TCM inside the transmission is tuned correctly they do go ok but i don't even rebuild them i just install new units.


Hope that put some light on the subject.

FYI im also new to this forum as i just bought a Disco 2 Td5 Auto and this forum has been a great help.

Cheers
Rhys (aka Mr Furious :BigThumb:)

This design is similar to the Ford F-Series trucks i don't think it would fit in the small space the Range Rover Bell Housing offers.

Alto USA have a Red Eagle upgrade for the Mercedes 722.6 5 speed transmission which is similar to the F-Series but alot smaller.

See Link
http://www.altousa.com/images/new_products/np152.pdf

Its a good idea but your right once its developed it $1000 converter which a faulty pump or valve unit will still destroy. Its a case of all bases being covered.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Laurie

I was talking to the people at Austra Torque Engineering today

sales@ateconverters.com.au

03 9466 1563

After an initial discussion on a heavy duty torque converter for the 5L4OE, I was told that GM had used a batch of badly bonded clutch plates in the converters. This explanation would explain the TC clutch failures that have puzzled many. Over time these have prematurely degraded and sent debris into the oil, thus contaminating the valve body, oil-lines and cooler. Their experience has been mainly with VE Commodores etc. but the failures are consistent to the troubles seen in the L322 & BMW's both here and Europe.
They don't have a Heavy Duty Low Stall converter for the 5L40E as they have found the newer versions of the clutch plates work fine in the Commodores.; but they offered the following deal, unfortunately I can't use it as I'm not in Melbourne.
They are prepared to build a Td6 heavy duty version with the following components;

Austra Torque Engineering - Low-Stall

the build would include a 3 plate clutch setup, giving a minimum 300% increase in holding torque, and a input torque rating of over 500 lb/ft. The cost would be $500, usually the price for this setup is over $900 !!! this would be a R&D deal with them, so as they can judge the setup and performance, and modify if needed.
Hence a Melb member would be ideal.
Testbook, autologic etc availabilty would be a benefit.
I told them of others having these problems, and would let them know about the offer so first in, best dressed.

I have no association with ATE, the offer came from a phone inquiry.

Laurie

---

Rhys thanks for your insight on rebuilding these auto, if/when the times comes I will be contacting you and using your services.
In regards to the pistons and seals who were the OEM for these ? I have noticed that a lot of the rebuild kits/parts offered from some US Distributers and online are of Chinese origin !!!
Are the valve bodies the same ? When I was looking for specs etc the RR and X5 valve bodies carried different part numbers, ; or was this just a opportunity to bump up the price because they are percieved as premium brands ?

Regards
Laurie

Hi Laurie,

There are a few differences in the BMW & Range Rover valve bodies. The main is the late BMW's have a different pressure solenoid which is matched to the TCM the valve body is the same where the solenoid is located.

The Commodore to BMW/Rover valve bodies use different gaskets and the plate that holds the balls has some differences which is why the gaskets are different. However the valve sections are the same as commodore. The units are interchangeable apart from accumulator pistons & springs.

The Accumulators Piston sizes and spring tensions are all different between all models of 5L40E. If happy with the feel of the shift just use your original pistons, Piston housings & Spring as they are all removable. If chasing firmer shift start with commodore they seem to be the firmest. They can all be mismatch to achieve the feel your after.

I use transtec OEM kits with imported genuine pistons from where ever i can get them. Holden did sell them but now only sell complete drums. I can get FWD, Coast & 5th gear pistons from local parts suppliers but the others are hard to find. I had a stock of AC Delco stuff which is gone which is why I am now looking at new boxes and converting them.

Cheers
Rhys

Hi Rhys, great to have you on the forum and for you to share your knowledge on these boxes.

Despite the issues I had originally, I really appreciated your commitment to getting me back on the road again - it has been going like a dream since.

Cheers - Gav