Penrite 5W 40

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Originally Posted by Laurie

Rick
I am seeing a few diesel repair specialists now recommending thicker oils in warmer areas, than what the makers advise; their reasoning is, the lighter oils are adding significant fumes, that are causing EGR and inlet manifold "gunk" build up.

Do I need a Catch can on my New Diesel? - YouTube

Wrong Oils... Why? - YouTube

What are your thoughts on this ?

If you can advise ! which oils have the highest Spec's for the TdV8 & Td6 ?

Laurie

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Hmm, I reckon delete the EGR valve ! [bigwhistle]
Not very enviro in terms of NOx, but....

Even xw-40's cause soot buildup in the inlet tract. (ask anyone with a TD5) We're pulling soot laden exhaust gasses into the inlet tract, I don't think it matters what the weight of the oil is, it's going to cause soot buildup.

What may help a little is an oil with the lowest possible NOACK number. This is a measure of the oils volatility. Obviously the lower the volatility the less oil that evaporates in the ring land area and finds it's way into the chamber and exhaust.
The problem is that hardly anyone publishes an oils NOACK %. [bigsad]
There are fairly strict limits to meet modern specs, but they can be better too. eg I used to use Penrite Enviro + 10W-40 HDEO in the 300Tdi as it had a lower NOACK compared to their Diesel 5 5W-40 when I was trying to nail an oil consumption issue (which was quite low anyway, and turned out to be valve stem seals 'floating')
Penrite don't publish that oils NOACK anymore though.

Wha oils do you use in your cars Rick? Do you have a brand you tend to favour?

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Originally Posted by Eevo

so is there a list somewhere of engines and what oil specification they want... independent of the oil providers?

ie, td5 needs spec abc
tdv6 needs spec def
bla bla needs spec ghi

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The manufacturer.
Oil specs are usually listed in the car manual. That's where the oil blokes get their info from.

The problem with older models is that oil specs have moved/improved so much, ie. what was specified for the TD5, the old V8, etc just isn't relevant anymore.
Most of the modern oils say they are backwards compatible with older specifications, and you can trace the specs back. These are usually listed on the data sheet, but you will occasionally have issues such as metallic ash additives being reduced for emissions reasons and it affecting wear rates on cams and lifters in the V8, etc. so we have to be a little discerning.

so Rick----
we should be looking for "licensed" rather than "meets"

??

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Originally Posted by Blade74

Wha oils do you use in your cars Rick? Do you have a brand you tend to favour?

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ATM Penrite for engine oils and ATF, but I'm really partial to Castrol Transmax Z for the older ZF auto's.
A lot of the time it comes down to availability and $.

For years I used Mobil Delvac 1 in diesels and it worked very, very well.
I was taking a TD42T Patrol engine to 20,000km oil changes with reduced wear rates over what we'd used @ 5,000km with Delvac 1 back when we still had high sulphur diesel. The only reason I dumped it then was because we were in front financially, but the oil still had a lot of life left.
I used to use Castrols syn driveline fluids, only because they were the most readily available where I lived and I got killer pricing on them.
Some of the absolute best driveline fluids you can buy are made by Lubrication Engineers, but their stuff is hard to find here.
LE mineral diff and gear oils outperform almost everyone else's full syn fluids, the additive packages they use are that robust.
I really like Motul Gear 300 in gearboxes calling for 75W-85 through to 75W-90, the shift performance is generally excellent. Castrol Syntrax Universal Long Life is very good too, as is Redline MTL through MT90, but the Motul takes the operating temp ranges to another level. Funnily enough the bloke I use for analysis doesn't like Motul, reckons it's over-rated and over-hyped, but he does admit a bias against the French too. [biggrin]
Castrol Syntrans used to be my go-to fluid for the R380 until I discovered Gear 300. It had better shift performance than Redline IMO, but some prefer Redline. Apparently the new Amsoil brews are excellent, but I've never used them. Difficult to locate.

I use CAT for driveline grease, they use slightly higher %'s of moly than most moly greases and a calcium sulfonate complex soap instead of lithium complex which resists water washout much, much better than most readily available greases, and they use a moly platelet size which works ok with the rollers used in uni joints.

My favourite diesel additive is Redline RL2. It's the only additive I've tested that doesn't impact on engine wear metal levels. Even BP DieselGo had lead and tin rates shoot up in use. [bigsad]

Some of the boutique stuff is very good, and some is incredibly over-hyped too. An interesting story from a bloke i trust implicitly with oil testing, and bear in mind this was well over ten years ago.
A customer was using a well known full syn, full race engine oil and his oil testing was very ordinary. They swapped to Penrite just as a control and wear metals immediately went to excellent. They sent off a virgin oil sample of his previous oil to be tested. It was contaminated with dirt, probably somewhere in the bottling process. At the time it was imported in 44's and decanted and bottle here.

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Originally Posted by Pedro_The_Swift

so Rick----
we should be looking for "licensed" rather than "meets"

??

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With a new vehicle, definitely.

Or 'Approved' rather than 'meets'.

The oil blender has submitted the oil to the engine manufacturer, paid their $'s and had it tested.

BTW, just thinking a little more about the gunk in the inlet manifold, that's a good recommendation for a Provent if still using an EGR system.

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Originally Posted by rick130

If your engine has gotten that hot that the oil has coked in the head you have bigger fish to fry. ;)

The detergent/dispersant package determines how the oil handles soot and carbon, but yes, ultimately the ability to resist oxidation and heat would go like this.
Group I mineral oil, Group II mineral oil, Group II+ mineral oil, Group III syn, (severely hydrocracked hydrocarbon, and there are better grades of Group III oils too, Shell's being on e of the best, and Penrite use a Korean sourced Group III which is the equal of Shell's) Group IV, Polyalphaolefins (PAO), Group V, dibasic esters, Alkylated Napthalenes, Polyolesters (POE)

Mixing synthetic base stocks with Group II oils dramatically improves their oxidation stability, somewhat approaching a full syn in performance.

Personally I'll take an oil with 'better' specs over 'better' base oils any day. Part of this reasoning is that often the oil with better base oils has a 'weaker' additive package to meet a price point. The blender relies on the base oils to make up for a short fall in additive strength. Some blenders though are known to go a little further with their additive packages and take an 'everything plus the kitchen sink' approach.

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I appreciate and recognise what you say , i`d like to say i understand but that to me means being able to accurately relay the information to someone else .

Your coked comment required a read and what i found was that there is only around 22 deg C difference of it occurring , would you think this correct ?

I read some on shear and it seem euro oils come out on top ? ( IOM , don`t even know if recognised )

I also read that some of the useful additives ( forget which ) are lessened because of the use of cats and oxy sensors , do you know this to be correct ?
Edit ( Is this the metallic ash thing you wrote of to Eevo ) ?

I have a couple of bottles of Penrite Vantage 15W40 it has friendly to cats and oxy sensors on the label , i`ll use it in our RRC V8s which have neither .

I found " Bob is the oil guy " interesting , have you read and do you rate the site , wasn`t till i`d had enough that i found it so only looked as a little .

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Originally Posted by PLR

I appreciate and recognise what you say , i`d like to say i understand but that to me means being able to accurately relay the information to someone else .

Your coked comment required a read and what i found was that there is only around 22 deg C difference of it occurring , would you think this correct ?

I read some on shear and it seem euro oils come out on top ? ( IOM , don`t even know if recognised )

I also read that some of the useful additives ( forget which ) are lessened because of the use of cats and oxy sensors , do you know this to be correct ?
Edit ( Is this the metallic ash thing you wrote of to Eevo ) ?

I have a couple of bottles of Penrite Vantage 15W40 it has friendly to cats and oxy sensors on the label , i`ll use it in our RRC V8s which have neither .

I found " Bob is the oil guy " interesting , have you read and do you rate the site , wasn`t till i`d had enough that i found it so only looked as a little .

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Last first.
BITOG was really good once, a number of very clever industry people posted on there but these days there's only a couple I trust, most of the good ones are gone so there's a lot I'd take with a grain of salt. I visit once in a blue moon, but if I have a really important question I pay my money and consult an expert.
One poster there that if you can, read most of what he's written is Molakule. He's very, very clever.
I don't know if Bruce381 still posts, but Bruce is a triboligist too and knows his stuff.
These two blokes blend oils.

Re the metallic ash additives, yes, these are reduced due to Cat's, DPF's, etc but other very good and more expensive additives are often (but not always) substituted. eg tin napthanate's, boron esters, etc.

Shear comes down to the base oils and type of viscosity index improver's used, it's on an oil by oil basis.
A good rule of thumb is that the wider the viscosity spread the greater the tendency to shear, eg a 0W-40 vs a 15W-40 due to the use of viscosity index improver's (VII's) which when added to a base oil reduce the rate at which they thin with increasing temperature. To get a wider spread multi-grade you start with a lower viscosity base oil and add more VII which is why a lot shear in use (and then get thicker later, but that's an oxidative thickening issue and I digress...) but....
base oils like esters have a natural multi-grade characteristic so need less to none VII's compared to a mineral oil. eg Redlines old 15W-40 diesel oil used no VII's at all.
Some VII's (which are polymeric thickeners) can actually mimic a base oil and don't shear in use.
To my knowledge Castrol Europe were the first to use these about ten-fifteen years ago in their premium synthetic oils. They were pretty trick and pretty much blew the Americans minds at the time. I have no idea how widespread their use maybe now.

Re oil coking, oxidising and heat, I wouldn't stress too much between a premium semi-syn and full syn in normal use.
Once upon a time coked up tubo's and turb oil lines was common and full synthetic oils cured that issue, but with a good semi-synthetic meeting modern heavy duty diesel specs it should be a thing of the past.
Remeber that most of the worlds heavy trucks use mineral oils and are heavily turboed and flogged.
It's only when they go to long oil change intervals they use full syn oils, and then they have to do 100,000km on an oil change to make it viable.
Heavy duty diesel oils have higher detergent/dispersant levels than dual grade but petrol biased oils.
Eg Euro ACEA E4/E6/E7/E9 oils or US spec API CI-4+/CJ-4 have higher detegency requirements than ACEA B3/B4 or the old API CF spec, and the later API specs have much tighter wear, oxidative thickening and bore polish limits, among a bunch of other parameters. I haven't read the ACEA ones lately to compare B3/B4 to say, E6 or E9 (E9 being a mid SAPS oil like the API CJ-4, SAPS=Sulpahted Ash, Phosphorous and Sulphur)

This might sound a little disjointed, I have to go, I'm on the road home for the next couple of hours.

cheers.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rick130

Last first.
BITOG was really good once, a number of very clever industry people posted on there but these days there's only a couple I trust, most of the good ones are gone so there's a lot I'd take with a grain of salt. I visit once in a blue moon, but if I have a really important question I pay my money and consult an expert.
One poster there that if you can, read most of what he's written is Molakule. He's very, very clever.
I don't know if Bruce381 still posts, but Bruce is a triboligist too and knows his stuff.
These two blokes blend oils.

Re the metallic ash additives, yes, these are reduced due to Cat's, DPF's, etc but other very good and more expensive additives are often (but not always) substituted. eg tin napthanate's, boron esters, etc.

Shear comes down to the base oils and type of viscosity index improver's used, it's on an oil by oil basis.
A good rule of thumb is that the wider the viscosity spread the greater the tendency to shear, eg a 0W-40 vs a 15W-40 due to the use of viscosity index improver's (VII's) which when added to a base oil reduce the rate at which they thin with increasing temperature. To get a wider spread multi-grade you start with a lower viscosity base oil and add more VII which is why a lot shear in use (and then get thicker later, but that's an oxidative thickening issue and I digress...) but....
base oils like esters have a natural multi-grade characteristic so need less to none VII's compared to a mineral oil. eg Redlines old 15W-40 diesel oil used no VII's at all.
Some VII's (which are polymeric thickeners) can actually mimic a base oil and don't shear in use.
To my knowledge Castrol Europe were the first to use these about ten-fifteen years ago in their premium synthetic oils. They were pretty trick and pretty much blew the Americans minds at the time. I have no idea how widespread their use maybe now.

Re oil coking, oxidising and heat, I wouldn't stress too much between a premium semi-syn and full syn in normal use.
Once upon a time coked up tubo's and turb oil lines was common and full synthetic oils cured that issue, but with a good semi-synthetic meeting modern heavy duty diesel specs it should be a thing of the past.
Remeber that most of the worlds heavy trucks use mineral oils and are heavily turboed and flogged.
It's only when they go to long oil change intervals they use full syn oils, and then they have to do 100,000km on an oil change to make it viable.
Heavy duty diesel oils have higher detergent/dispersant levels than dual grade but petrol biased oils.
Eg Euro ACEA E4/E6/E7/E9 oils or US spec API CI-4+/CJ-4 have higher detegency requirements than ACEA B3/B4 or the old API CF spec, and the later API specs have much tighter wear, oxidative thickening and bore polish limits, among a bunch of other parameters. I haven't read the ACEA ones lately to compare B3/B4 to say, E6 or E9 (E9 being a mid SAPS oil like the API CJ-4, SAPS=Sulpahted Ash, Phosphorous and Sulphur)

This might sound a little disjointed, I have to go, I'm on the road home for the next couple of hours.

cheers.

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Would that there were more here like you .

I really appreciate your time , knowledge and explanation , i have no problem following your words or meaning .

In the last few days with your help , i`ve learn`t more about oil than i would have thought and now understand that the part i need to worry about is not the Voodoo i thought it was . Though the more i learn about anything the more i realise i don`t know .

I have a better understanding of the ACEA classes and Categories and the API ones .

I found the ACEA oil sequences , though that is something above what i need and all the different testing is interesting and just the tests done without understanding the outcome relate . Most recent 2016 the Nulon i have is 2012 the Penrite i have doesn`t give a year .

I know of the EELQMS and some about its members .

In the notes i took while reading a lot of what you have told me was there or what you told me lead me to what i put in the notes .

Always a question though .

The Class C low SAPS is this for use with ordinary catalytic converts or is it for use with the TWC type or is it only when a DFP and TWC are paired ?

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Originally Posted by PLR

Always a question though .

The Class C low SAPS is this for use with ordinary catalytic converts or is it for use with the TWC type or is it only when a DFP and TWC are paired ?

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That I don't know.

I'd be asking Penrite, although reading through Lubrizol's site will probably turn something up. It is excellent.

I just had a look on Lubrizol's site and it said this of the C class lubes;

These define the requirements for “catalyst compatible” engine oils for service fill usage in passenger car gasoline and light-duty diesel engines with aftertreatment systems.

They are designed for use in high performance gasoline and light duty diesel engines where advanced aftertreatment systems such as Diesel Particulate Filters (DPFs) and Three Way Catalysts (TWC) are used.

It doesn't really clear up whether it's an either, or together.

I love this comparison tool too, you can overlay the various sequences and really make sense of them
Relative Performance Comparison Tool for Heavy Duty Diesel Specifications - Engine Oil Additives - The Lubrizol Corporation