Thoughts on the D5

stop whinging you lot....
you would all have one if you could afford one....
Justification for your non ability to buy?
Do you think Land Rover didn't put a lot of thought and design into this vehicle?
whether you guys buy one or not it is already a good thing for Land Rover.
I'll have one thanks.

They certainly seemed to be cashed up at the moment, but Aston Martin aren’t worth much. Ford sold them for US$925m in 2007.

To put it in perspective, JLR produce about half a million vehicles annually and turnover about US$29b, compared to Toyota’s nearly 9 million vehicles and US$250b.

Tata paid US$2.3b for JLR in 2008 which was considered over-priced. While they would be worth more than that now, Toyota have a net worth of US$236b.

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Originally Posted by ramblingboy42

stop whinging you lot....
you would all have one if you could afford one....
Justification for your non ability to buy?
Do you think Land Rover didn't put a lot of thought and design into this vehicle?
whether you guys buy one or not it is already a good thing for Land Rover.
I'll have one thanks.

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And in the future everyone will be grizzling about how good the D5 was and how the new model is no good because .....

By the way France is heading together with some other European countries, the next generations will be either Hybrid with enough battery capacity to get through the cities or fully electric, and we will be griping about that!

For me, I am less negative on the D5 after participating last week in one of those Land Rover / Jaguar customer events where a factory team shows up with a gaggle of vehicles and lets types like me either ride in or drive them.

I was in the back seat of a D5 with a factory team member driving. It turns out, the 5 is no Ford Explorer, that I can definitely say.

Yes, it looks like one, but the 5 can do the balance on two wheels trick going over sharp ridges without the glass roof popping out etc. Most dramatic for me, was the driver, (a lady), shifting her weight towards the drivers door to get the 5 to tip the correct direction once it was balanced at the peak of the structure. That I will never do - the vehicle might have the capability but I don't.

Re the liftgate bit, yes, one has to step back, but that is normal with all of them with the single. I like my lower tailgate on my 3, but then I like pickups so ....

The main problem I have is with the styling and that is the raised belt line, common on all cars now, not just Land Rover.

The raised belt line means the side glass is higher and one cannot easily drive with an elbow on the door sill. I guess one does not do that on the freeway so for most, I guess that is not a real concern.

Hopefully the new Defender will be the solution to my retro way of thinking.

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Originally Posted by jon3950

They certainly seemed to be cashed up at the moment, but Aston Martin aren’t worth much. Ford sold them for US$925m in 2007.

To put it in perspective, JLR produce about half a million vehicles annually and turnover about US$29b, compared to Toyota’s nearly 9 million vehicles and US$250b.

Tata paid US$2.3b for JLR in 2008 which was considered over-priced. While they would be worth more than that now, Toyota have a net worth of US$236b.

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Why is everyone comparing JLR with Toyota as if its some kind of financial / production holy grail?

Isn't being different to Toyota the reason we like Land Rover?

The bigger JLR gets, the more generic their vehicles will become. It's already happening. ...McGoverns statement that the new Defender will compete with Hilux illustrates this perfectly.
Those who are arguing that JLR is poor and needs to meet the market, are also arguing for a mass market generic future for JLR. Sadly I think you guys are right and that's what's happening. ... I'm arguing against that, not that it will make any difference LOL.

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Originally Posted by Zeros

Why is everyone comparing JLR with Toyota as if its some kind of financial / production holy grail?

Isn't being different to Toyota the reason we like Land Rover?

The bigger JLR gets, the more generic their vehicles will become. It's already happening. ...McGoverns statement that the new Defender will compete with Hilux illustrates this perfectly.
Those who are arguing that JLR is poor and needs to meet the market, are also arguing for a mass market generic future for JLR. Sadly I think you guys are right and that's what's happening. ... I'm arguing against that, not that it will make any difference LOL.

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When you say everyone you mean me. [biggrin]

The only reason I was comparing JLR to Toyota was to illustrate the point that they are a relatively small manufacturer and do not currently have the capacity to produce a high volume, low margin vehicle.

I’m not really arguing anything here. I’m just trying to explain the commercial realities that JLR face which have led to the product strategy they have. I’m not suggesting they are poor, just relatively small which limits their options. However until Tata bought them they had basically always struggled to invest in new models.

I would have thought that it was self-evident that to remain in business, any company needs to sell a product that the market wants and JLR is no exception. If you’re arguing against this premise, what would you suggest they do instead?

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Originally Posted by scarry

IMHO,the D4 has the best tailgate set up of any vehicle in its class.
It is extremely versatile,and very handy.
Standing on the tailgate with the top door down to access anything on the roof is one thing that won't be able to be done with the new model set up.


I can't see the foxwing i have fitting the D5,as the rear door raises up way too high,another after market accessories that won't fit the this new model.

Mcgovern,or what ever his name is,said to the media,the old set up was prone to rust and these days,you cant get away with rear panels not fitting correctly.

What a load of garbage.

What he really meant was the target competition vehicles in the market we are aiming at have this set up so thats the way we have gone.
And it is probably easier and cheaper to manufacture.

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Yeah, I liked the tailgate set-up in the D4 too - at least once I got used to it.

Can’t say I have a strong opinion either way though on the D5 set-up. I’m sure it’s better than the Defender’s.

One thing I’m not keen on is the electric opening. Can you open it if one of the actuators fails in the middle of nowhere and you have a cargo barrier? At least in the Defender you can open a window or push one of the rear quarter windows out.

Interestingly I’ve heard it said a few times that the hardest part to designing a car is getting the door seals right. So I’m sure ease of manufacturing would have something to do with it.

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Originally Posted by jon3950

Yeah, I liked the tailgate set-up in the D4 too - at least once I got used to it.

Can’t say I have a strong opinion either way though on the D5 set-up. I’m sure it’s better than the Defender’s.

One thing I’m not keen on is the electric opening. Can you open it if one of the actuators fails in the middle of nowhere and you have a cargo barrier? At least in the Defender you can open a window or push one of the rear quarter windows out.

Interestingly I’ve heard it said a few times that the hardest part to designing a car is getting the door seals right. So I’m sure ease of manufacturing would have something to do with it.

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The Defenders is probably one of the worst around as it is way to narrow.

Hang on,time to hide under a rock.....[tonguewink]

But it is almost a 70 year old design[bigwhistle]

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Originally Posted by jon3950

One thing I’m not keen on is the electric opening. Can you open it if one of the actuators fails in the middle of nowhere and you have a cargo barrier? At least in the Defender you can open a window or push one of the rear quarter windows out.

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The few electric tailgates ive seen can be opened manually.

It still doesn't help if the lock actuator fails, like what can happen in the D3, D4.

...ok it's a discussion not argument 👍

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Originally Posted by jon3950

When you say everyone you mean me. [biggrin] Yes and whoever else thinks JLR should become a high volume low margin company 😊

The only reason I was comparing JLR to Toyota was to illustrate the point that they are a relatively small manufacturer and do not currently have the capacity to produce a high volume, low margin vehicles. i know, that's what I disagree with. The high volume manufacturers turn out bland generic vehicles. I like Land Rover as an innovator not a follower. Having the capacity to produce high volume is not the holy grail.

I’m not really arguing anything here. I’m just trying to explain the commercial realities that JLR face which have led to the product strategy they have. I’m not suggesting they are poor, just relatively small which limits their options. However until Tata bought them they had basically always struggled to invest in new models. I don't see that their options are limited. They are making exactly what they want to make - luxury urban escape vehicles at the cutting edge of technology. Yes they can afford to invest in new models...I am saying I dont agree with their priorities. They could have prioritised two more utilitarian models in front of the past 3 or four luxury models if they'd wanted to. The market for these is actually bigger.

I would have thought that it was self-evident that to remain in business, any company needs to sell a product that the market wants and JLR is no exception. If you’re arguing against this premise, what would you suggest they do instead? I disagree. Staying in business requires innovation and leadership, not following what others are doing. JLR is doing this at the luxury end of the market albeit in increasingly generic looking packages. But they have dropped the ball for years in the utilitarian / work sector.

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...and back on topic, the D5 tailgate is bigger and heavier than any I've ever seen.