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Thread: Cruisemaster's view of the new Defender as a heavy tow vehicle

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Melbourne Park View Post
    It's just that when I attach my trailer, there is a time lag between the attachment of the trailer, and the vehicle achieving a horizontal stature. Which can only be achieved by running the motor, as that indirectly powers the air pump. I think when observing axle weights, the motor should be running.
    Gotcha.......wouldn’t have thought there would be much transferred from rear to front from leveling but valid point. Something I’ll get to experience in my old school defer when I get around to bagging the front.

  2. #12
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    Hey Doug

    Interesting point about them ensuring the car is level by measuring with the engine running. In my opinion they're pretty cluey guys so I'd expect that they did that, but it would be very good to know...

    Personally, I would always run a winch and a bull bar as I often drive in the country at night and when touring we tend to travel solo - so for me those items would be there regardless of towing nothing, a camper trailer, or a 3.5 ton van. The winch could also come in handy if needing to drag the van out of an awkward position. Also, regarding the tyres, I personally wouldn't tour without light truck tyres for the puncture resistance, and they are a good 5 to 8kg or so heavier each than the Duratracs. From memory I compared them with Cooper ST Maxx (had these before and they were brilliant), BFG KO2 (my current tyres) and KM3's.

    Regarding the tow ball issue and looking at the manual extract that you've added (and this is coming from an RRS owner who tows a camper trailer, so I might have missed something), I'd imagine that you would need to take off 200kg off the maximum payload when the ball weight is 350kg. An allowance for some ball weight is generally not factored into the vehicle payload by the manufacturer, the payload is the payload (unless you have to de-rate it by 200kg as above) and sadly every kg of the ball weight reduces the payload. The Series 1 to 4 Y62 Patrol's have this same issue where the GVM needs to be reduced for heavier ball weights and Nissan fixed it on the series 5 which can now tow at full payload with max ball weight.

    With the 150kg ball limit, Cruisemaster were referring to some LR fine print that said that you could only have a 350kg ball weight if the trailer had "overrun brakes", otherwise the limit would be 150kg. This is counter intuitive because you legally must have a breakaway system where the trailer is greater than 2000kg (and a respective 200kg ball mass), and this necessitates electric or electro-hydraulic brakes. From the Qld Transport & Main Roads Safe Towing Guide "Over-run brakes may only be used on trailers that do not exceed 2 tonnes GTM". So it is strange that LR would specify overrun brakes to facilitate a 350kg ball mass - I think this was good pick up by Cruisemaster.

    On the GVM upgrade, from the Qld TMR code of practice LS11: "Re-rating of GVM under LS11 code is permitted only on the following type of light vehicles:
    A light vehicle that is constructed on a ladder type chassis frame with a cabin and/or body mounted on it. Vehicles with integrated frame and body, commonly known as unitary or monocoque construction, are not eligible."

    So the GVM can be upgraded on a D4 or RRS, but not the new Defender (at lest in Qld, but I'm sure the other states would be similar). The L320 RRS has a front axle rating of 1540kg (which is higher than a D4, can't remember by how much), and a D4 has an 1885kg rear axle rating (which is higher than the RRS 1710kg). Given that both vehicles are very similar you could probably get a D4 and an RRS to legally have a GVM of 3425kg (combined axle mass of front L320 RRS with rear D4) as it is within the 10% increase allowable under LS11 and you should be able to either confirm that the parts across the models are the same, or install the components that are different from the higher rated vehicle. I was considering going further down the rabbit hole but put it in the too hard basket at the time.

    For anyone interested, when I spoke with an engineer about doing a GVM upgrade on the RRS the next steps were:
    *Try to obtain a letter of support (or more likely a letter of no objection) from LR
    *Send the letter to the engineer for appraisal who would then forward to Qld TMR to determine the testing required
    *Assess whether the RRS had the same rear axle and components as the D4 or upgrade components as required
    *Pending above determination by TMR a $12k ESC test in Melbourne could be required following the modifications (ideally this wouldn't be required, but would need to go through above steps to find out)

    I'd probably be on my own doing it on an RRS, but D4 owners could split the cost of the ESC test, if it were necessary, to bring down the overall cost.

    Cheers
    Rob

    Quote Originally Posted by Melbourne Park View Post
    A couple of things about their review did disturb me.

    Firstly, how real is the need for a winch on a vehicle which tows a 3.5 tonne trailer?

    Secondly, putting a winch and bull bare would take the weight off the rear axle.

    Thirdly, why would one need to put on heavier tyres when the vehicle is far superior off road than it's competition?

    Fourthly, did they measure the weights on both axles with the engine running, or was the engine turned off?

    And some other thing: 150kg tow ball issues rang a bell with me ... here is what was said about the D4 and its towing weight:

    " From the manual:
    If the vehicle is loaded to the maximum Gross Vehicle Weight (GVW), the nose weight of the multi-height drop plate tow ball is limited to 150 kg, so that the maximum rear axle weight is not exceeded. To increase the nose weight to the maximum 250 kg, the GVW should be reduced by 100 kg.

    and
    Australia only: The nose weight must be a minimum of 7% of the gross caravan/trailer weight, up to a maximum of 250 kg. When using the detachable trailer hitch receiver, see FITTING THE DETACHABLE TRAILER HITCH RECEIVER (Australia only), the nose weight can be increased to 350 kg if the GVW is reduced by 200 kg. "

    So, for Australia, the 150kg for D4 towing, referred to the fact that Australian D4s had an inclusion of 150kg already allowed for the tow ball weight. Which means, if you put 350 kg on the rear ball, you would then take 150kg OFF THE GVM of the D4 ie add only 250kg to the D4's GVM if you added 350kg to the rear tow ball ....

    It seems to me its possible, that this 150kg issue, is similar to the issue the D4 had about its tow ball weight? Possible the CEO of Land Rover Australia, might not know ... sadly, it would not surprise me if something has confused issues, was happened back with the D4???

    My Toyota bitch: I looked at buying one of their vans (I had a Prado 150 Kakadu and Cruisemaster said a 200 Landcruiser was the vehicle to choose outside of getting big US 6.5 litre diesel V8 - but the owner of Cruisemaster (then at least) emailed me and said the D4 did not work on their trailers, as the Land Rover's trailer stability system was not compatible with their own auxiliary stabiliser setup - and that the D4 "fought" their own stability system ... I presume now, their trailers are now tolerant of stability systems, because Toyota have had them for several years now).

    But they were quite anti Land Rover.

    I placed an order for a Sahara too on a dealer special on December 31st 2014 - but the dealer would not supply me a vehicle, due to their claim that they didn't have time to register the vehicle (it being 9 am in the morning). So I ended up buying my Disco with 4K on the clock from an annual LR sale ... and I bought an Australian Off Road trailer. Which by the way are typically much narrower than Cruisemaster so the standard LR mirrors will work terrifically. And you can get down narrow tracks as well with a narrower trailer. The owner of Australian Off Road loves Land Rovers too ... I should ask him his view of the new Defender...

    Incidentally, all Toyota owners on Australian Off Road mention the lack of support for LRs around Australia. It's really the major selling point of Toyotas. Afterall, they are a quite primitive design. So far, I've done 90 odd thousand K in my Disco, and had four failures in my vehicle:
    1 - the latch on one of the rear seats broke (under warranty and the dealer would not fix it for free - its still broken but I intend to remove the seats)
    2 - the driver's side vehicle front door rubber got holes in it (under warranty and the dealer would not fix it for free - its not leaking dust or making a noise so I've left it)
    3 - the "D" letter has lost a central bit of the vertical left side (under warranty and the dealer would not fix it for free - i did not blame them for that as their repair was to replace the whole kit at $1,450 or something silly)
    4 - A fuse went recently (my trailer had a short circuit in it's side lights due to a failed plug underneath the van)
    5 - I broke a rear window due to a bad road and not having a stone stomper fitted. I was 1,200km from Melbourne but tape held it together fortunately. RovaRange service got me a window for about $700.

    Thanks too, to Land Rover. I got caught in Brisbane before Christmas with a new Victorian lock down, where all people from the NSW Border would not be allowed back into Victoria - announced at 1pm on December 20th, the day of the wedding, we had to cross the Vic border by the next day, December 21st. Having taken my wife and AOR trailer to the wedding in Brisbane ( I thought airports are a Covid risk). so, darn it dictator Dan, I had to miss the reception of my close friend's daughter's wedding.

    We left the wedding at 6 pm and drove back to Melbourne, and made the border by 5:30 pm the next day. We had torrential rain much of the way. The first night part of the drive home, until 10 pm after the wedding on the Newell Highway, we had to swerve to avoid two semi trailer trucks running wide and we were at the speed limit. The rain was torrential. The road is just two lanes and semis were constant, as it was December 20th that evening drive, and the trucks were rushing to bring Christmas goods to Brisbane and it's Sunshine and Gold Coast cities.

    I reckon the Land Rover got us home, its steering response is on another planet compared to a 200 series, it's handling is on another planet too, and its level lighting no matter the load on tow ball with our trailer attached (trailer weights vary as water tanks etc. go up or down, toilets etc etc) is extremely safe, plus the thing handled some really nasty deep water and bad roads with joyous safety. OK there are negatives, but heck, it actually handles bloody well. What price safety?

    Finally, OK the D4 has a chassis but I don't think you can change its GVM, plus its rear axles would need upgrading too in order to increase the GVM, and I've not heard of being able too. Fact is if I'd bought a 200 I'd have had to spend $10k minimum extra on upgrading it, and more likely over $15,000. My extras have been bull bar, 3rd party tow bar (due to it being easier to shackle the safety chain on and off and also some academic clearance benefits), a bull bar, OK some fun stuff as well. But actually all it needed was bull bar, and I didn't do that for several years ... LR ain't perfect, sure, but Toyo ain't either, and I own three of them at the moment ... my best vehicle by far is the Disco, I still love it. Shame it's still not available actually because i do like a chassis for towing.

    Doug

  3. #13
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    But the car can level if the engine is not running - it just needs enough air in the tank. It needs the engine to be running for the compressor to run and to manually change height via the console switch.
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  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by 101RRS View Post
    But the car can level if the engine is not running - it just needs enough air in the tank. It needs the engine to be running for the compressor to run and to manually change height via the console switch.
    If one puts 350kg on the rear tow ball, that would push the rear down - and the vehicle would have to then lift the 350kg, plus then re-level the rest of the vehicle. In my experience, with less than 350kg added, you'd need the engine running to achieve that. They should have had the motor running ... but who knows ....

    An issue for me though, is that CrusieMaster (who a few years ago with me - before I bought a Discovery and when I had narrowed my choice to 200 series or Discovery and before I bought a van - were very anti Land Rover, and said a Discovery was a poor tow vehicle for their products. Due in black and white to it's anti sway technology which was not compatible with their trailers. They were quite dismissive of the LR product. They thought either buy a 6 plus litre USA diesel motor (for a short time there was even a Nissan with a 6+ litre GM V8 diesel which they loved but it was only around for a short time), or buy a 200 diesel.

    And in their review, up comes - out of the D4 era too - that 150kg reference, which also was not understand by Land Rover Australia with the D4, and which confused many D4 owners over towing issues, for considerable time. The resolution was that when you added 350 kg to the tow ball of a D4, you only would add 200kg to the GVM. Because LR had included a presumed two ball weight of 150kg before the GVM was calculated. But also - you could not add 150kg to the GVM if you were not towing. So, up again came that 150kg tow ball paragraph - and I suspect, Crusimemaster and for that matter, Land Rover Australia, don't know what they are doing - once again. So it is more than likely, the Cruisemaster rejection on towing, is based on a false premise. And really, the head of Land Rover Australia, is probably not the best place to go to find out towing issues.

    I am not defending the Defender either - I would prefer a chassis vehicle for towing, and for ancillaries, etc. etc.

    Maybe what I'll do, is keep the D4 until a 3rd party comes out with new gen batteries, and when the outback has charging stations available - and I'll have the Disco converted to electric. Had hah - the chassis is a good platform to do that.
    2014 HSE White;Tint; Windsor Lthr; 18" Compo & BFG KO2s 265/65/18; ARB-Summit B Bar, roof racks, air compressor Bushranger Night Hawk VLI 9" dimmable, Traxide Ritter Tow Bar, X Air jack Max Trax V1’s Redarc Tow Pro, GME Uhf 2 antennas, 9555 Iridium sat phone, AOR Matrix V3 off road van

  5. #15
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    a few points i picked up from the videos they run, plus discussions i had with Andrew at Cruisemaster
    and with Zone RV (Cruisemaster own a Zone Off Road with extended draw bar, plus other goodies attached
    to the front).

    Not all axles weights are the same, i have the P400 5+2 which provides up to 1900KG on the rear axle

    I could not understand how they could not get a standard hitch to fit, i have an Hayman Reese tongue
    fitted with a D035 which can be inverted and at on road height sits at 530mm, i think that is the sweet spot
    So not sure why they had to fit an adjustable which sat totally proud of the rear, not sure if that contibruted
    to the rear loading going up.

    The Zone i have ordered should be coming in around 230KG on the nose, so even loaded up it should be no more than
    260KG

    I have gone through the iguide and cannot find any reference to reducing GVM by 200KG before taking into account
    anything above 150KG as per the D4, possibly LR with their head in the sand or they just missed it

    Pick up our Zone Base Off road in September, looking forward to getting out there with our Deffa

  6. #16
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    Watched the video twice, just to make sure I haven’t missed anything.

    How could they get it so wrong (information wise)

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by zilch View Post
    ......So not sure why they had to fit an adjustable which sat totally proud of the rear, not sure if that contibruted
    to the rear loading going up....
    Definitely will have contributed.
    Cheers,

    Sean

    “Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.” - Albert Einstein

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tombie View Post
    Watched the video twice, just to make sure I haven’t missed anything.

    How could they get it so wrong (information wise)
    to be fair to them in the last video they do say check on weights based upon your model, the
    weights for each model is in the online iguide

    https://www.ownerinfo.landrover.com/...t/38261_en_GBR

    Not sure if they had the vehicle in access or ride height when they did the measurement. Picture attached
    is our vehicle in standard ride height with HR Tongue inverted with D035 hitch pin.. HR confirmed to
    Bars and Racks that it can be inverted and still meet the weight specifications, however gusseted ones cannot.


    ultimately they are about towing and gvm upgrades etc, so assume the Defender will not suit
    as a long term experiment due to the restrictions on its construction.


    IMG_0374.jpg

  9. #19
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    The bottom line is that they really should use a Unimog to tow the weights they want to tow over the terrain they test on.
    + 2016 D4 TDV6

  10. #20
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    Decisions Decisions!

    Wow, after experiencing the slackest customer service I’ve ever had in buying a $200K vehicle from a certain Range Rover salesman in Tassie resulting in canceling the order, we are now looking at buying a new Defender from either the opposing dealership or the mainland.

    I’ve seen the Cruise Master video in question some time ago and it had me worried as we have a Zone
    RV 20.6 Off Road actually on order since March this year, delivery due in Feb 2022 (#705, my second Zone) and I need a dedicated tow vehicle/work car for Robyn ASAP.

    ‘We are going into Launceston this morning and will drop into the dealership to see if they have a Defender to look over, book a test drive if able. We will need to spec up with the biggest 6 cylinder 225/650Nm 3L engine for towing, but effectively, geez this whole axle weight issue has me edgy.

    I realise that we are being sort of anal and just skating around the edges of specific weight rulings compared to real world examples of what most people are actually doing out there on the road with their over loaded vans and tow vehicles etc, but it really is a very limited gene pool of options for quality tow vehicle, and re the Zone, I’m buying one of the lightest, best built vans that there is on the world market, and I will not carry much in either the vehicle or the van.

    Let’s hope that the new Defender is ok for towing the 20.6 Zone. I want one!

    New 2022 Defender Axel load Specs below.

    152C0B64-AC78-4672-BB48-D315E6ECBD97.jpgB2A9EC27-727F-486C-BB0D-01D428C3DBC8.jpgE79E93BB-78FD-4FF5-921C-9FC563C138B8.jpg73538760-9D9C-4B45-B554-EDC403301159.jpg
    2012 Defender 110 (A silver one!)
    Defender:LS3 6.2 V8 and 6 Speed Auto, ARB BP51 shocks, springs, Damper, Gwyn Lewis running gear, Superior Engineering Radius arms, Long Ranger tank, Recaros', Dual battery, LED lighting, ARB Lockers etc etc.

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