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Thread: FFR Refurb

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
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    Narre Warren South
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    FFR Refurb

    After purchasing what I thought was a fairly good condition FFR I am now embarking on a slightly more thorough overhaul/rebuild.
    Purchased via ebay it wasn't running and had a damaged front wing and cracked exhaust manifold but was otherwise complete and with a reasonable hood. The previous owner had removed the cylinder head because it was 'smoking' but put it back together without changing the head gasket !
    After sitting on the driveway for a few weeks I charged the battery and tried to start it. All I could hear was the fuel pump ticking away so I put some petrol in the tank, the ticking stopped and was replaced by the smell of petrol ! Drained the tank, annealed the sealing washer on the tank drain plug, refilled it and started again. It wouldn't start and the engine was turning over quite slowly so I decided to replace the battery but the motor still turned over slowly. Eventually tracked it down to a dicky starter motor, fortunately by now I had a spare engine from another forum member (thanks Steve) and it had a working starter motor.
    The car still wouldn't start but was turning over a lot faster. Fiddling around under the bonnet I found that the distributor wasn't bolted down !!
    I decided to check the plugs, tappets & set the timing statically (and bolt the distributor down). Checking the exhaust tappets was fun, had to remove the dipstick tube, to do that had to remove the oil filter housing so decided to change the oil and found a fair bit of water & emulsified oil in the sump (which I put down to the head gasket).
    Still wouldn't start but after replacing one HT lead and the coil she was running.......
    I fixed the exhaust manifold with a drinks can & some wire & then filled up the radiator, started it again and sprayed water everywhere because two bolts on the thermostat housing were sheared off !!!
    Drilled out the broken bolts, fitted new ones and she ran perfectly except for water bubbling from the head gasket and a smoky exhaust so, as expected, the head had to come off.
    With the head off the combustion chambers were found to be very oily so it needed further investigation. Part of the oil problem was the head gasket not sealing but the compression rings were found to be badly worn

    I managed to source a head gasket from a forum member (thanks Peter) and a front wing from another (thanks Garry) but I'm struggling now to source +.020 rings.

    While looking for rings I decided to change all the oils. Drained the rear diff and first got water, then coffee coloured, lumpy, oily stuff and finally some clean oil. The car has a lot of mud stuck underneath and I think it has been left stuck somewhere partly submersed.
    Front diff oil was OK.
    Checked the prop shafts and had to replace one UJ on the rear, The front had both UJ's stuffed but it had the gaiter on the slip joint. Brilliant idea until you leave the vehicle in deep water.......undid the gaiter and muddy water came out ! It clearly wasn't sealed well enough to keep the water out but sealed well enough to keep it in. The splines are OK luckily.

    The FFR will take a while to complete because we are imminently expecting 2 new arrivals....a baby in early January and a military 2A next week !!

    More info, pictures and, no doubt, more horror stories to follow.......



    Colin
    Attached Images Attached Images
    '56 Series 1 with homemade welder
    '65 Series IIa Dormobile
    '70 SIIa GS
    '76 SIII 88" (Isuzu C240)
    '81 SIII FFR
    '95 Defender Tanami
    '58 Series II (sold)
    Motorcycles :-
    Vincent Rapide, Panther M100, Norton BIG4, Electra & Navigator, Matchless G80C

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Robertson NSW
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    Hmmmmm,

    Seen something similar recently...
    Cant quite put my finger on it....
    Any ideas JohnE

    Gotta love it all haven't you!
    keep up the good work gromit!

    Rob King

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Narre Warren South
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    Thanks Rob,

    I was watching the FFR thread by JohnE hoping for a simple solution to my problem.

    The compression rings are OK but the oil control rings have worn very badly. Couldn't work out why, but now I have an answer....
    My Rover colleague spoke to someone in the engine reconditioning industry, rapid oil control ring wear is apparently a sign of ingesting lots of fine dust.
    When I checked the oil bath filter it had no oil in ! The previous owner had effectively run it without a filter and looking at the state of the underneath of the vehicle it had been used for some serious off-roading so it would quite possibly have sucked in a fair amount of fine dust........


    I'm beginning to dread working on the FFR because of what I might find next. Maybe it's time to re-assemble it and put it back on ebay.


    Colin
    '56 Series 1 with homemade welder
    '65 Series IIa Dormobile
    '70 SIIa GS
    '76 SIII 88" (Isuzu C240)
    '81 SIII FFR
    '95 Defender Tanami
    '58 Series II (sold)
    Motorcycles :-
    Vincent Rapide, Panther M100, Norton BIG4, Electra & Navigator, Matchless G80C

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Narre Warren South
    Posts
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    A couple of engine reconditioners I have been to have sold off all their old ring sets etc., there are a few companies buying up all the old stuff.
    Late yesterday I tracked down STD & +.040" rings but still no +.020". A local company can get +.020" from the UK but $230 by the time I get them, one of the companies buying up all the old stock is checking whether thay can put together a ring set from loose rings.

    Still trying a few UK places so hopefully after Christmas I can get the FFR going again.

    I have to complete a traditional rocking horse and assemble a dolls house for my daughter in time for Christmas plus tidy the garden and remove Land Rovers from the driveway ready for guests.
    Too many projects, too little time......



    Colin
    Attached Images Attached Images
    '56 Series 1 with homemade welder
    '65 Series IIa Dormobile
    '70 SIIa GS
    '76 SIII 88" (Isuzu C240)
    '81 SIII FFR
    '95 Defender Tanami
    '58 Series II (sold)
    Motorcycles :-
    Vincent Rapide, Panther M100, Norton BIG4, Electra & Navigator, Matchless G80C

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Tregeagle, NSW
    Posts
    2,406
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    Looks like we are both in the same boat, will fire off a message tonight when i get home to compare notes and maybe we can work out a solution as the engine guys seem to up in the air for might liking .
    There does not seem to be too many 2.6 experts about,.

    john

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    East-South-East Girt-By-Sea
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    Your fall back is to contact Ian Cox from Cox and Turner Engineering in the UK. They continue to have parts for the Series 1 IOE engines manufactured so I am assuming that they do the same for 2.6 Land Rover parts also. They have an Ebay presence but at present their website only displays the contact details.Welcome to Cox & Turner Engineering

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Narre Warren South
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    I've uploaded a couple of pictures to show the degree of wear on the oil control rings. In the first one you can see that the spacer between the oil control rings has rubbed against the bore and in the second one you can see the difference in radial thickness between a compression ring and whats left of an oil control ring.
    I need to hunt down my internal micrometers or telescope gauges to check the bore wear before going much further. There is a wear ridge at the top of the bore but I need to check how bad the bore is and maybe start checking out the spare engine as an alternative....

    I only had the car running for a very short time because of the leaking head gasket but the exhaust was smoky.

    JohnE, good to talk to you last night, a problem shared is a problem halved.......but it's still a problem !

    Colin
    Attached Images Attached Images
    '56 Series 1 with homemade welder
    '65 Series IIa Dormobile
    '70 SIIa GS
    '76 SIII 88" (Isuzu C240)
    '81 SIII FFR
    '95 Defender Tanami
    '58 Series II (sold)
    Motorcycles :-
    Vincent Rapide, Panther M100, Norton BIG4, Electra & Navigator, Matchless G80C

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Narre Warren South
    Posts
    6,314
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    I visited 2 more engine reco companies today (the beauty of being paid to drive around for a living).

    1st one couldn't track down rings but found that rings from a Holden grey motor are within 1thou of the OD and wider than the original. This opens the option of getting the pistons machined to accept non-std rings (shame it's from a Holden though).
    I now have details of someone who can quote for doing it and should have a price soon.

    2nd one tracked down STD, +.040 & +.060" rings but no +.020".
    He then managed to track down new pistons.

    Set 6 pistons +.060" $ 275
    Rings for the above $175
    Bore & hone $28plus GST per cylinder

    The bore & hone price was based on me taking in just the bare block otherwise there would be additional costs.
    He didn't know much about F-heads but when I made him aware of the slightly increased bore at the top he commented that there may be a small increase in the bore & hone costs. They reference off the sump plane so no fancy tooling needed to bore the block.

    I also managed to borrow a bore comparator (I'm sure someone will come up with the correct technical description....) so that I can quickly check for wear throughout the bore. The chap that loaned it to me has had it for years and never used it so he was glad that at last someone was putting it to good use.


    Colin
    '56 Series 1 with homemade welder
    '65 Series IIa Dormobile
    '70 SIIa GS
    '76 SIII 88" (Isuzu C240)
    '81 SIII FFR
    '95 Defender Tanami
    '58 Series II (sold)
    Motorcycles :-
    Vincent Rapide, Panther M100, Norton BIG4, Electra & Navigator, Matchless G80C

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Narre Warren South
    Posts
    6,314
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    Phew, only .003" wear in the bore so if I can get .020" rings then I just have to hone the bore and I'm in business.
    The backup plan is the Holden rings, although I must check out the machining costs first.

    Colin
    '56 Series 1 with homemade welder
    '65 Series IIa Dormobile
    '70 SIIa GS
    '76 SIII 88" (Isuzu C240)
    '81 SIII FFR
    '95 Defender Tanami
    '58 Series II (sold)
    Motorcycles :-
    Vincent Rapide, Panther M100, Norton BIG4, Electra & Navigator, Matchless G80C

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Tregeagle, NSW
    Posts
    2,406
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    Colin, very interesting good photos' ring what ring' its nearly all gone just like you described.

    Funny you mentioned the grey motor, I have had a chat with maurie tonight (muddy) and one of the things that came up was the availability of rings.
    I reasoned the motor came out if the fifties, around the same time was the holden grey motor ex chrysler copy I believe, did they reinvent the wheel and design a piston with rings only available for use in one type of motor, I would think not, why not use what was already around. ( about now I expect the techno experts to come in and quote designers engineers and so on.) I reckoned a set of holden rings would probably fit with a bit of fiddling. maurie concured,
    Some of those links gave great points I am especialy interested in whether valve stem guides could be the problem,


    john

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