CAT 12H Coolant issue

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Originally Posted by Blknight.aus

got a hydraluic-coolant cooler on that baby?

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Unsure,I guess it is as there isnt much in the way of coolers on it,many years since it was my pussy cat.Oils are free of coolant,it doesnt appear to be oil in the coolant,it isnt emulsifying.What ever the issue is its producing plenty of the black stuff.
Originally we suspected exhaust soot in the coolant,its not pressuresing the system like a blown head gasket,the sniffer test didnt pick anything up either.Not that they are too reliable on a diesel motor.
Andrew

care to take a guess at what happens when you use an organic acid on a mineral base oil mix it with some rubber and expose it to heat?

think TD5 engine oil cooler but hydraulic oil doesnt have all the detergents and stuff added to it

suggest as an experiment adding a tracing dye to the hydraulic oil if it has a coolant-oil heat exchanger

The excessive iron contamination maybe due to two things assuming it's a 3406 in it.....
1- the block itself is starting to actually dissolve from age or being wet liner, you have liner corrosion issues.
2- what is he topping up the coolant with, more ELC or tap/ground/bore water???

If the town water is from ground water based supply it may well be naturally occurring ferrous iron prevalent in WA ground water. Similar also for dam held surface water.
WA Groundwater varies from 10ppm up to as much as 70ppm which when exposed to air will start to oxidize quite quickly depending on pH.
I used to design chemical treatment systems for a number of years before I got tired of the backward attitude of the Water Corp here in WA and went back to the Automotive industry.

Providing it's topped up with ELC and not the above or any other coolant, my experience with a lot of Cat engines is purely age, problem is you need to remove it or do an in chassis strip to assess it.
I doubt that the sludge is anything related to the Dexcool issue as Dexcool had some significant chemical differences which were actually the cause and I have not seen or ever heard of any similar issues with Cat ELC but am open to correction if anyone does.
However, if the sludge is iron and it does get air in the system then this may be an indicator that the block is physically on it's way out.

Be interesting to see the results.

Cheers

Andrew


Sent from my backyard TeePee using smoke signals.

Andrew, a CAT lab tech in the US (on another forum) told me some years ago that Dexcool, Texaco ELC and CAT ELC were identical, except for a couple of supplementary additives that CAT had added and for the life of me I can't remember what (nitrite and borate ?) to boost the base mixture and help with potential cavitation erosion/liner pitting.

At the time, CAT didn't have any of the problems that were plaguing GM either but I've heard Pat whinge about CAT coolant a few times, blaming the ELC/OAT for all sorts of things.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rick130

Andrew, a CAT lab tech in the US (on another forum) told me some years ago that Dexcool, Texaco ELC and CAT ELC were identical, except for a couple of supplementary additives that CAT had added and for the life of me I can't remember what (nitrite and borate ?) to boost the base mixture and help with potential cavitation erosion/liner pitting.

At the time, CAT didn't have any of the problems that were plaguing GM either but I've heard Pat whinge about CAT coolant a few times, blaming the ELC/OAT for all sorts of things.

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Hmmm.... Interesting as I know Detroit Powercool and Cat ELC are not to be mixed together.
This is the label on Powercool

http://184.72.239.143/mu/6e161bae-1516-65b9.jpg

http://184.72.239.143/mu/6e161bae-158f-d650.jpg

There's also new CAT number too for 20l drums being 365-8396 against the old 238-8649. Pic of both below

http://184.72.239.143/mu/6e161bae-1640-8f97.jpg

Makeup list for the new one

http://184.72.239.143/mu/6e161bae-16ac-3d12.jpg

Now get busy and work out the answer!! :p


Sent from my backyard TeePee using smoke signals.

OK, CAT ELC was definitely made by Texaco (as of five years ago) and is an OAT with small amount of nitrite and molybdate as SCA's, (not borate) otherwise it was identical to Land Rover OAT and GM US Dexcool.

The Sodium 2-ethylhexanoate is the active (last photo) that distinguishes it as an OAT and particularly a Texaco/Dexcool derivative.

Unfortunately I can't ask Mark the CAT/Butler labs manager across to discuss what could be wrong as he was killed five years ago :(

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LOVEMYRANGIE

The excessive iron contamination maybe due to two things assuming it's a 3406 in it.....
1- the block itself is starting to actually dissolve from age or being wet liner, you have liner corrosion issues.
2- what is he topping up the coolant with, more ELC or tap/ground/bore water???

If the town water is from ground water based supply it may well be naturally occurring ferrous iron prevalent in WA ground water. Similar also for dam held surface water.
WA Groundwater varies from 10ppm up to as much as 70ppm which when exposed to air will start to oxidize quite quickly depending on pH.
I used to design chemical treatment systems for a number of years before I got tired of the backward attitude of the Water Corp here in WA and went back to the Automotive industry.

Providing it's topped up with ELC and not the above or any other coolant, my experience with a lot of Cat engines is purely age, problem is you need to remove it or do an in chassis strip to assess it.
I doubt that the sludge is anything related to the Dexcool issue as Dexcool had some significant chemical differences which were actually the cause and I have not seen or ever heard of any similar issues with Cat ELC but am open to correction if anyone does.
However, if the sludge is iron and it does get air in the system then this may be an indicator that the block is physically on it's way out.

Be interesting to see the results.

Cheers

Andrew


Sent from my backyard TeePee using smoke signals.

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Thanks Andrew.
Only had rainwater in it for flushing,topped up with ELC.
I will get a good sample and see what Ben can do with a test.
Andrew

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LandyAndy

Thanks Andrew.
Only had rainwater in it for flushing,topped up with ELC.
I will get a good sample and see what Ben can do with a test.
Andrew

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Andy, how old is it and how many hours?

Hi Brian
8750 hrs,would be no more than 8 years old,was brand new when I started work with the shire 7 years ago.
Andrew

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LandyAndy

Hi Brian
8750 hrs,would be no more than 8 years old,was brand new when I started work with the shire 7 years ago.
Andrew

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Well, you outfit does put more hours on than the average shire council. Rule of thumb in the equipment sales business was that shire gear does around 800 hours or slightly more per annum. Twelve years and 10,000 hours being a pretty common trade-in from govt. and local govt. bodies. How much of this was work, and how much roading from job to job instead of floating was always a moot point. Hardest usage I ever came across was a Fiat-Allis 31 dozer supplied to Utah with extended warranty of two years/10,000 hours. They were past the 10,000 hours before the two years expired and had actually done an in-frame overhaul of the KT Cummins at about the 10,000 hours. Normal wear and tear, not warranty.

I have never before heard of your sediment problem. I find it hard to imagine a cast iron engine disintegrating into black powder.

Isn't it amazing the amount and types of chemical crap we now pour into radiators? I like the Castrol green stuff myself. When I started work in the late 1950's we used water. If the contents started to look too muddy, then they were drained, a couple of pounds of washing soda inserted, filled with fresh water, driven around for a week or so, drained, flushed, and refilled with water.