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Thread: Tractor Aircon Help

  1. #1
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    Tractor Aircon Help

    I have a tractor with an airconditioned cab. The tractor is an early 1980s Fiat 980DT. The aircon doesnt work and I'm in the proceess of considering the effort required to repair it.
    The compressor is a piston type, the condensor looks to be in OK condition but the hoses are looking a bit old.

    What are the likely bits that will need replacing and an approximate cost?
    Can I use hychill for some benefit?

    Regards,
    Tote
    Go home, your igloo is on fire....
    2014 Chile Red L494 RRS Autobiography Supercharged
    MY2016 Aintree Green Defender 130 Cab Chassis
    1957 Series 1 107 ute - In pieces

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  2. #2
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    All the hoses will more than likely need replacing, the old R12 hoses tend to delaminate or at least become porous to the modern refrigerants.

    A neighbour has a an old FiatAgri tractor, can't recall the model number, but it has the 6 cylinder Fiat engine.
    We've changed the compressor (it failed several years ago, although it was a Sanden swashplate style, it was a 5 cylinder and I replaced it with an SD7H15, similar to one used in a Deefer) and had to change every hose and O ring to keep refrigerant in it.

    Before we changed the hoses I was going to use R600 (HC) but i asked Ladas who was the expert on HC refrigerants and he advised that the if the hoses weren't working with the R134a blend i was using, the HC refrigerant would be going through them fairly quickly too.
    Last edited by rick130; 20th November 2012 at 06:29 AM. Reason: should be R600 not R290. R290 replaces R22 pressure refrigerants

  3. #3
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    We converted our 180 pallet freezer room (2 zone - 4 refrigeration units) and 5 freezer trucks to HC refrigerants and found that the HC units had to be topped up less frequently. Apparently the HC molecule is a larger size.

    However if you change to HC refrigerants you also need to change the drier unit before evacuating for the HC refrigerant. Most r12 compatible oils are HC compatible.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lotz-A-Landies View Post
    [snip]
    However if you change to HC refrigerants you also need to change the drier unit before evacuating for the HC refrigerant.
    [snip]
    That's standard procedure for any refrigerant change or when opening up a system

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lotz-A-Landies View Post
    We converted our 180 pallet freezer room (2 zone - 4 refrigeration units) and 5 freezer trucks to HC refrigerants and found that the HC units had to be topped up less frequently. Apparently the HC molecule is a larger size.

    However if you change to HC refrigerants you also need to change the drier unit before evacuating for the HC refrigerant. Most r12 compatible oils are HC compatible.
    There was a good article in the 'Australian' a couple of weeks ago about HC refrigerants.Apparently the largest industrial fire in the town of Tamahere,NZ was fuelled by HC refrigerants.
    Paul

    D2,D2,D2a,D4,'09 Defender 110(sons), all moved on.

    '56 S1,been in the family since...'56
    Comes out of hibernation every few months for a run

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by scarry View Post
    There was a good article in the 'Australian' a couple of weeks ago about HC refrigerants.Apparently the largest industrial fire in the town of Tamahere,NZ was fuelled by HC refrigerants.
    Probably came out after a press release from DuPont Chemicals who can't patent a naturally occurring gas. In fact if you read the article from the Tamahere fire service, the problem was the inadequate signage at the plant that should have warned the attending brigades that there were flammable gasses present in the plant. No different to fighting a fire at a fuel depot, or any other place where there are flammable or explosive hazards.

    HC refrigerants are no more dangerous than any other form or propane and given the quantity of gas in most car (or tractor) a/c units about 15 to 20 time less dangerous than the LPG tank in the back of most Taxis.

    They also have 1000 times less Global Warming Potential than CFC replacement refrigerants.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lotz-A-Landies View Post

    HC refrigerants are no more dangerous than any other form or propane and given the quantity of gas in most car (or tractor) a/c units about 15 to 20 time less dangerous than the LPG tank in the back of most Taxis.

    They also have 1000 times less Global Warming Potential than CFC replacement refrigerants.
    Correct.

    But if you read the NZ fire services report,a lot more than just signage needs to be done before it is used in larger plants.

    Tote,hope you get the tractor sorted,sorry to have hijacked the thread.
    Maybe no smoking in the cab
    Paul

    D2,D2,D2a,D4,'09 Defender 110(sons), all moved on.

    '56 S1,been in the family since...'56
    Comes out of hibernation every few months for a run

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by scarry View Post
    Correct.

    But if you read the NZ fire services report,a lot more than just signage needs to be done before it is used in larger plants.

    Tote,hope you get the tractor sorted,sorry to have hijacked the thread.
    Maybe no smoking in the cab
    It didn't say that at all. These are the recommendations.
    "Specific matters in the inquiry team’s recommendations include the following:
    1. The Hazardous Substances and New Organisms (“HSNO”) regulations and standards should be amended so that stationary refrigeration systems, and the refrigerant they contain, are subject to appropriate controls.
    2. All large-scale flammable gas installations should by law require inclusion of stenching agents in the gas.
    3. The regulatory regime as a whole should be reviewed to promote the sharing of information about hazardous substances between regulatory and other interested agencies.
    4. The current rural/urban fire legislation should be analysed in relation to risk planning and control of fires in buildings throughout New Zealand.
    5. Agencies need to share information about buildings using nationally consistent formats.
    6. Fire Service pre-incident planning processes need to identify high-risk buildings, including those that are outside the urban fire district.
    7. The current Fire Service instruction on significant incident and post-incident support should be reviewed to capture lessons learnt in this event.
    8. Fire Service operational instructions on the use of gas detectors should be reviewed to provide more detailed information.
    9. Formal security and scene handover procedures for major fires should be improved.
    The inquiry identified nine different factors, any one of which could have avoided the risks and injuries to the responding firefighters:
    1. HSNO regulations applied fully to this installation
    2. prior notification to the Fire Service of hazardous substances at the premises
    3. receipt of an application for approval of an evacuation scheme
    4. pre-incident planning and familiarisation visit by local Fire Service staff
    5. Fire Service awareness of the large-scale use of flammable refrigerants in New Zealand
    6. warning signage at the premises
    7. stenching agent present in refrigerant gas
    8. flammable gas detection on the premises alerting crews
    9. crews using a portable gas detector.

    This indicates that the fundamental cause of the incident may lie in part in systemic defects in the regulatory environment and the communication between the various regulatory agencies. This is an issue that may deserve wider investigation by the Government."
    Only three of the nine identified factors pertain to the refrigeration, These were the (6) lack of signage, (7) the addition of a stenching agent into the gas (making the HC smelly) and (8) flammable gas detection in the plant.

    The rest of the issues were inter-agency, fire service actions and regulatory failures. The same failures that could apply to a welding fabrication plant using equivalent quantities of welding gasses and LPG or a paint factory, a BBQ store, a commercial kitchen or boiler plant using natural gas etc etc. In fact the controls (6), (7) & (8) could just as easily be applied to natural gas or any location where large volumes of LPG or other flammable substances are stored/used. Infact a couple or three LPG powered fork lifts would have as much or more LPG as the HC in the refigeration plant.

    There is a video of a scientist at UNSW filling a car with a equivalent amount of HC refigerant sitting in the car and lighting a match. Yes he does get some superficial burns to his face and hands but what person would sit in a car in an obvious cloud of refrigerant gas and still light up a cigarette.

    If it is safe to smoke in a car with 80 or 100 litres of LPG fuel then it is as safe to smoke in a car with 800 grams of HC (LPG) refigerant.

  9. #9
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    I looked into converting a small country supermarket to HC's a few years back.

    It just wasn't cost effective when you added in the necessary safety and alarm systems needed in the case of a leak.

    If it had been a large supermarket we were building from scratch it may make sense, but to do the alarm and safety systems properly is pretty involved, and I'd still be a little antsy as some Woolies and Coles can have a lot of refrigerant in a system.
    A tech I was talking to last week reckoned one system he used to work on carried 600kg of R404.

    Imagine even 300kg of HC to replace that 600kg circulating under high pressure. (LPG heating systems only use around 5psi down stream of the regulator, R290 will be up around 300psi/2100kPa in the discharge/liquid side of the system)
    A lot of safeties and alarms are needed.

    One of the local roo boxes was running an HC when I was called in to service it.
    No signage, no alarms and it's an airtight ex-shipping container.

    You can just imagine a roo shooter opening the box at 2:00am with a ciggy hanging out of his mouth and an evap leak has dumped all the R290 inside.....

    Needless to say it now runs an HFC blend instead.

  10. #10
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    Thanks for the replies guys
    From what I've learned it looks like the following is probably the go:
    Budget for new hoses
    Budget for a new reciever/ drier
    Se what eventuates with th rest of the system when the refrigeration bloke repressurises it.

    Regards,
    Tote
    Go home, your igloo is on fire....
    2014 Chile Red L494 RRS Autobiography Supercharged
    MY2016 Aintree Green Defender 130 Cab Chassis
    1957 Series 1 107 ute - In pieces

    Assorted Falcons and Jeeps.....

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