3 Slipped Liners 4.0 P38A

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11th December 2011, 10:59 PM
PLR

G`day Bruce ,

can`t argue that the liners have moved but the pistons in the pics don`t show signs of steam cleaning which is related to the crack in the block that allows the liners to move .

You can`t see it because you only have the top off but the liners sit on a 360deg base unlike earlier Rover V8s .

The theory is these engines as yours are the better made ones but in reality it`s not so .

Yours is obviously miss made because the liners shouldn`t have the ability to drop that far . These dropped liners shouldn`t have had the space underneath to allow the drop . This is part of the reason these engines have the 360deg ledge for the liner base to sit on .

If you wish and it`s not cleaned yet it would be of interest to see pics of the head gaskets the cylinder head faces and the block deck , specially on the ends where the fluid is able to enter into the chambers and also on the cylinders that the liners have dropped on .

May be a long shot but i`m suggesting that even though the 3 liners have dropped , it may have been that way along time and the bubbles may only be a gasket problem of coarse close scrutiny would be call for .

Peter
12th December 2011, 12:31 AM
mike 90 RR

Quote:

Originally Posted by PLR

Yours is obviously miss made because the liners shouldn`t have the ability to drop that far . These dropped liners shouldn`t have had the space underneath to allow the drop . This is part of the reason these engines have the 360deg ledge for the liner base to sit on .

Totally agree .... Blatant case of lack of manufacturers quality control ....
12th December 2011, 06:02 AM
brucep

Quote:

Originally Posted by PLR

G`day Bruce ,

can`t argue that the liners have moved but the pistons in the pics don`t show signs of steam cleaning which is related to the crack in the block that allows the liners to move .

You can`t see it because you only have the top off but the liners sit on a 360deg base unlike earlier Rover V8s .

The theory is these engines as yours are the better made ones but in reality it`s not so .

Yours is obviously miss made because the liners shouldn`t have the ability to drop that far . These dropped liners shouldn`t have had the space underneath to allow the drop . This is part of the reason these engines have the 360deg ledge for the liner base to sit on .

If you wish and it`s not cleaned yet it would be of interest to see pics of the head gaskets the cylinder head faces and the block deck , specially on the ends where the fluid is able to enter into the chambers and also on the cylinders that the liners have dropped on .

May be a long shot but i`m suggesting that even though the 3 liners have dropped , it may have been that way along time and the bubbles may only be a gasket problem of coarse close scrutiny would be call for .

Peter

Hi Peter,

Thanks for the reply. I haven't cleaned anything yet, so I'll take some more photo's this morning.

Regards,

Bruce
12th December 2011, 07:34 AM
brucep

Hi,

Here are some more Photos;

Overall Block Deck:

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/im...011/12/742.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/im...011/12/743.jpg

Close Up - End Cylinders / Water Jacket:

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/im...011/12/744.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/im...011/12/745.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/im...011/12/746.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/im...011/12/747.jpg

Overall Heads:

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/im...011/12/748.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/im...011/12/749.jpg

Close Up - End of Heads / Water Jacket:

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/im...011/12/750.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/im...011/12/751.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/im...011/12/752.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/im...011/12/753.jpg

Head Gasket - Water Jacket Ends:

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/im...011/12/754.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/im...011/12/755.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/im...011/12/756.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/im...011/12/757.jpg

Hope they are all OK. It does not look like one cylinder has been especially steam cleaned.....the car only ran for about 10 mins once it started to pressurise the cooling system. I hope you are right.....the gasket looks shot at one end of the water jacket. I'd appreciate your ideas.

Thanks,

Bruce
12th December 2011, 02:38 PM
PLR

G`day Bruce ,

First pics are no substitute for seeing in the flesh as the same bit can look different in each pic .

In the other pics of the liners i can see some but is there carbon above where the liner has dropped on all 3 ? ( between the deck and the top of the liner )

The first pic that shows the pistons , which is good is the problem piston second in from the right ?

In the first head pic , lower head , are the 2 center chambers related to 2 of the dropped liners ?

Is the 2nd head pic far left chamber related to gasket pic 1 ?

I can`t see any obvious signs on the deck but i think the pic has reflected but the other deck pics are good .

I cant see any obvious sign around the chambers for internal though it look like they were near leaking externally .

The second gasket picture the gasket looks to have failed across at the water jacket and also infront of the bolt hole .

Has this part of this gasket delaminated because it doesn`t seem to leave a tell on either the head or deck ?

If the sun is still shinning are you able to hold the gaskets so that the sealing ring ( the metal ring closest to the cylinder ) glistens and can you look for dull spots , not dirty from dismantling but dirty from a loss of seal and on both sides of each one . I hope you can follow what i mean .

Then relate the dull spots to the chambers/cylinders they can from .

If you haven`t taken notice of which gasket goes where if you look at the red silicone on the gaskets and heads you can work out which goes where and also if it goes back together you know which way the gaskets go up .

Cheers
12th December 2011, 03:50 PM
brucep

Hi Peter,

Thanks for the reply.

Quote:

In the other pics of the liners i can see some but is there carbon above where the liner has dropped on all 3 ? ( between the deck and the top of the liner )

Yes, they were all black with carbon buildup. I sprayed some CRC gasket stripper on the areas of the slipped liners I took photo's of....so they showed up better.

Quote:

The first pic that shows the pistons , which is good is the problem piston second in from the right ?

Yes, Ive has a closer look at it, and I can see the shiny edge of the first ring on the 2 places where the edge of the piston has broken away. There is no sign of any fragments, and the broken areas are thickly coated with carbon buildup.

Quote:

In the first head pic , lower head , are the 2 center chambers related to 2 of the dropped liners ?

No, the dropped liner on that side is only 3rd from the left on that head.

Quote:

The second gasket picture the gasket looks to have failed across at the water jacket and also infront of the bolt hole .

Has this part of this gasket delaminated because it doesn`t seem to leave a tell on either the head or deck ?

There is a very faint mark between the water jacket to cylinder area at both ends, especially on the passenger side head. The gasket it very brittle around the water jacket, it has a roughter surface, and if you look end on around the water jacket cutout you can see very fine lines of rust. Just touching it causes it to flake off.

Quote:

If the sun is still shinning are you able to hold the gaskets so that the sealing ring ( the metal ring closest to the cylinder ) glistens and can you look for dull spots , not dirty from dismantling but dirty from a loss of seal and on both sides of each one . I hope you can follow what i mean .

Then relate the dull spots to the chambers/cylinders they can from .

Ok, I have done that. the side that sits on the block really only shows the small ridge of carbon buildup....about 1mm wide around each internal edge. On the top side there is a really dull, stained area at each end of both gaskets....around the water jacket cutouts. It fades away to a more uniform colour as it gets closer to the clyinder.

Hope that might help give you ideas.

Thanks again.

Regards,

Bruce
12th December 2011, 04:20 PM
PLR

Hi Bruce ,

the third from left chamber with the drop is the exhaust valve reddish and does it show any sign of rust ?

Do any of the other valves show any sign of rust ?

cheers
12th December 2011, 04:44 PM
PhilipA

I think there is no point in our speculating about where the water is coming from.

The block is pretty well stuffed without major work. Any cracks behind the liners will be evident when the liners are pulled out.

The usual practice as I understand it, is to weld the cracks before fitting the stepped liners , and sealing the liners at the bottom, so even if the crack reopens the water will be contained behind the now "wet" liner. the head gasket will seal any water coming up at the top from the combustion chamber.
You ask what is the most economical way to fix it.

Well I am of a couple of minds. You can get a new 4.6 short motor for around $3750 -4000 or so. This may be the most economical option and you get a bonus, but you still have a question of whether the new block will be just as bad as the old.. I think this is what I would do , but then I have a RRC which runs cooler than a 38A and doesn't have the stupid thermostat system that IMHO causes half the problem.

I still have doubts whether many Australian machinists are anal enough to heat up the block before pressing stepped liners and do the job properly. I note Turner now give a 3 year warranty on their stepped short engines but this turns out to be pretty expensive, at about the same price as a new short engine.

BTW, your V shows terrible (black) oil colour ,which is usually indicative of a neglected engine . They should be honey colour in there if the oil is changed regularly. The only reason I say this is that there could be a lot of wear in your rockers, crankshaft etc etc. and the bottom end machining may cost a bit, making a new short engine a more attractive alternative.
Regards Philip A
12th December 2011, 05:28 PM
brucep

Quote:

the third from left chamber with the drop is the exhaust valve reddish and does it show any sign of rust ?

Do any of the other valves show any sign of rust ?

Hi Peter,

The exhaust valve is slightly red, there are no signs of rust on any of the valves.
12th December 2011, 05:41 PM
brucep

Hi PhilipA,

Thanks for the reply.

Quote:

The block is pretty well stuffed without major work. Any cracks behind the liners will be evident when the liners are pulled out.

Thanks, I'm amazed how smooth, and reliable the engine has been since I have had this car.....looking at the condition of internal engine components I'm suprised it ran at all.....just goes to show how forgiving these engines can be.

I think I will go with Turners, but I haven't really made any firm decision yet.

Quote:

BTW, your V shows terrible (black) oil colour ,which is usually indicative of a neglected engine . They should be honey colour in there if the oil is changed regularly. The only reason I say this is that there could be a lot of wear in your rockers, crankshaft etc etc. and the bottom end machining may cost a bit, making a new short engine a more attractive alternative.

I change the oil regulary, usually 4 times a year (the car is only used weekends, usually less than 15K Km's per year)......I don't buy cheap oil, I replace the oil filter each time etc.....I noticed there is alot of gunk in the bottom of the left side head......so I don't know what has happened in the past as far as oil changes go....all the service history in the book is stamped.
I might take the sump off and have a look from underneath how things look.

Thanks,

Bruce

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