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Thread: Battery type

  1. #1
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    Battery type

    Hi All,

    We all know how our beloved beasts love to have exactly the right voltage on it's components and to that end a lot of time and effort is spent on getting the wiring, grounding and alternator up to snuff. Recently I have been monitoring my battery levels more closely since I am running my first fridge ever from a secondary battery setup Very happy with the national luna btw!

    In any case, my car has been sitting in the back yard for a couple of weeks after the abenteuer und allrad messe this year and I noticed a few things. First of, my gel batteries (which were free so that's why I "chose" gel) did not get fully recharged even after a 6 hour trip home. My setup is probably not ideal yet (no dc-dc charger, just a relay to isolate). This has probably also resulted in my main battery also not being fully charged.

    I used a regulated power supply set to 14.4 volts to top up both the main and secondary batteries and left the system like this after this was done. After a couple of weeks my secondary batteries are at 12.65 volts, which makes sense since not all of them are the same quality (they were secondhand) so the voltage drops to the lowest battery. The only thing connected is a turned off HF set, a turned off inverter and a turned off fridge (which means only the battery monitor is effectively working).

    My main battery is of course connected to the car which is just sitting there with the hood open. When I recently checked the voltage again (directly on the battery itself) I measured 12.35 volts which would be around 75% charge, though officially you would need to measure it open circuit.

    So, it seems to me that the range rover electronics do use quite a bit of power just when the car is sitting doing nothing. I do have the key in the ignition but it is turned all the way to off. My battery is only 2 years old and is a respected brand but also seems to be a bit tired already. Seeing as the battery needs to cycle deeper than is desirable for a plain lead acid battery I was wondering if our vehicles would be better of with a battery that is more suited for this type of use, ie an AGM for example which you can find in most modern vehicles with that bloody stop/start system.

    Any thoughts anyone?

    Cheers,
    -P

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by prelude View Post
    Hi All,

    We all know how our beloved beasts love to have exactly the right voltage on it's components and to that end a lot of time and effort is spent on getting the wiring, grounding and alternator up to snuff. Recently I have been monitoring my battery levels more closely since I am running my first fridge ever from a secondary battery setup Very happy with the national luna btw!

    In any case, my car has been sitting in the back yard for a couple of weeks after the abenteuer und allrad messe this year and I noticed a few things. First of, my gel batteries (which were free so that's why I "chose" gel) did not get fully recharged even after a 6 hour trip home. My setup is probably not ideal yet (no dc-dc charger, just a relay to isolate). This has probably also resulted in my main battery also not being fully charged.

    I used a regulated power supply set to 14.4 volts to top up both the main and secondary batteries and left the system like this after this was done. After a couple of weeks my secondary batteries are at 12.65 volts, which makes sense since not all of them are the same quality (they were secondhand) so the voltage drops to the lowest battery. The only thing connected is a turned off HF set, a turned off inverter and a turned off fridge (which means only the battery monitor is effectively working).

    My main battery is of course connected to the car which is just sitting there with the hood open. When I recently checked the voltage again (directly on the battery itself) I measured 12.35 volts which would be around 75% charge, though officially you would need to measure it open circuit.

    So, it seems to me that the range rover electronics do use quite a bit of power just when the car is sitting doing nothing. I do have the key in the ignition but it is turned all the way to off. My battery is only 2 years old and is a respected brand but also seems to be a bit tired already. Seeing as the battery needs to cycle deeper than is desirable for a plain lead acid battery I was wondering if our vehicles would be better of with a battery that is more suited for this type of use, ie an AGM for example which you can find in most modern vehicles with that bloody stop/start system.

    Any thoughts anyone?

    Cheers,
    -P
    I note you are in the Netherlands, so if you can access something like our local excellent smart unit USI 160 Traxide for dual/multiple battery setups (Tim the designer/seller is a member/vendor on here) this could help. From my experience, it would be worthwhile getting one sent over from here.
    MY16 D4 TDV6 - with a little Cambo magic for towing "The Brick"
    MY95 RRC LSE Vogue Softdash "Bessie" (turning circle comparable to QE II) with MY99 TD5 and 4HP24 transplants. Back home Nov 22 after a magic overhaul by Chivalry
    SADLY SOLD MY04 D2a TD5 auto Classic and MY10 D4 2.7 both with lots of goodies

  3. #3
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    Victron and I believe mastervolt are both dutch producers of this kind of stuff, mostly for boats though (so stuff is usually a tad bit on the heavy side) so I can get similar products over here and I am planning on adding that soon (tm). The one thing they do not make is a decent dc-dc charger.

    In any case, I will get something like a decent electrical setup for sure but I am still wondering about the type of main battery to use in the P38, independent of the secondary battery setup

    Cheers,
    -P

  4. #4
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    Hi Mate

    The battery Size is 333 l x 173 w x 215 or 240 h

    I bought this supercharge battery (215mm height) Supercharge GOLD PLUS MF31-931, cars

    I believe the standard battery is the ACDELCO S31-901 (240mm height)

    https://www.rjbatt.com.au/wp-content...31-901MF-1.pdf

    Basically I just got the most powerful battery I could fit in the battery holder !

    Regards
    Steve

  5. #5
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    I also added a high output alternator with a more aggressive regulator !

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by prelude View Post
    .....

    I used a regulated power supply set to 14.4 volts to top up both the main and secondary batteries and left the system like this after this was done. After a couple of weeks my secondary batteries are at 12.65 volts, which makes sense since not all of them are the same quality (they were secondhand) so the voltage drops to the lowest battery. The only thing connected is a turned off HF set, a turned off inverter and a turned off fridge (which means only the battery monitor is effectively working).

    My main battery is of course connected to the car which is just sitting there with the hood open. When I recently checked the voltage again (directly on the battery itself) I measured 12.35 volts which would be around 75% charge, though officially you would need to measure it open circuit.

    So, it seems to me that the range rover electronics do use quite a bit of power just when the car is sitting doing nothing. I do have the key in the ignition but it is turned all the way to off. My battery is only 2 years old and is a respected brand but also seems to be a bit tired already. Seeing as the battery needs to cycle deeper than is desirable for a plain lead acid battery I was wondering if our vehicles would be better of with a battery that is more suited for this type of use, ie an AGM for example which you can find in most modern vehicles with that bloody stop/start system.

    Any thoughts anyone?

    Cheers,
    -P
    Not unusual for 'respected brands' to become tired so quickly.
    I'm thinking, does having the bonnet up on the P38 affect the power drain on the security system?
    As I remember, they have a bonnet monitoring sensor thingie for anti-theft too.

    I have a 'respected brand' here in Aus main starter battery, got the largest power model I could locate in short notice before a long weekend, paid a bit more for the 3 yr warranty too.
    It dropped a cell in less than 12 months.
    Worked out the warranty, got replaced, and for a couple of months it held up OK in terms of charge over a couple days.
    My D1, tdi .. minimal electrics/electronics .. is my daily driver. Very rare for it to sit more than a day.. but sometimes it may sit for 3 days(weekend) if I don't use it.
    For the first couple months with this replacement, it held good charge, about 12.7-12.6 volts easy.
    I have a VSR type dual battery setup. The aux battery isn't as powerful, and it a cheaper generic type from a popular auto parts outlet.
    After this first couple of months, the replacement main battery then began losing charge holding ability. Not uncommon for it to dip down to 12.4-12.2v overnight now. Has been like this for a couple months now.
    Still starts OK, but seeing it this low is a bit concerning.
    The cheaper, less powerful but ever reliable generic Aux battery has always maintained a minimum of 12.5(that I've seen).
    I have two voltage monitors in cabin to see battery condition at any time .. always connected.
    The Redarc solenoid turns off when main hit less than 12.7v.
    Once this happens, I can then see that when isolated, the main then drops down to it's sometimes 12.4v level, sometimes 12.2v level.
    Aux battery over the same period, is usually 12.5v, sometimes even holds 12.6v over the same period.

    Kind of annoying to say the least.
    Seriously not happy with the "yellow peril", and I'm expecting it to fail by about Oct or thereabouts .. just like it's predecessor did!

    Same overnight draw on both batteries when car is OFF .. being the volt gauge/USB ports connected.

    I'm curious as to why you think your gel batteries didn't get fully charged after a 6 hour trip home?
    You say they were 12.65v, are second hand.
    I've had a spare aux connected a couple of times to my simple VSR setup and both have got fully charged to 12.7v(as well as the main).
    So with that particular setup, main is in the front engine bay slot connected via a massive 0 gauge cable .. gets good amps and volts, no worries.
    This occasional spare is in the rear luggage area. I've fitted a 2Gauge cable to the rear(from the front Aux) under the car, and the last 200mm of cable is 6 gauge, via a 40amp resetting relay.
    So the rear aux battery can only ever get a max of 40 amps. It charges no worries after a 3 hr trip.

    SO the question is: in your aux setup, what cable are you running to the secondary batteries?
    What charge level were they(are they) when you set off on your trip home .. etc.
    Have you charged them, let them sit for a minimum 1 hr afterwards to see what settled voltage they sit at afterwards?
    Have you checked the alternator output level with a few 'things' on?
    ie. air con, if you use this regularly, HF, lights aux lights .. etc.
    Arthur.

    '99 D1 300Tdi Auto
    '03 D2 Td5 Auto

  7. #7
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    OH and by the way the P38 eats batteries !

    The BECM wakes u regularly (to see if the earth has moved it seems)

    So battery drain is a real issue

    There is a sticky on RR.net which may help

    **INFO** Electrical Troubleshooting

    Steve

  8. #8
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    Hi,

    Thanks for the replies

    The alarm system on my P38 is reportedly broken, it says so when I put the key in the ignition. I suspect that a previous owner got so tired of that thing and he had it disabled, I never tried to get the alarm to go of so I am not sure. I have been sleeping in the rtt with the car locked and I never had the alarm sound. The sensors for the doors and bonnet still work though since driving with the bonnet open immediately makes the dash go crazy

    In any case, with the car unlocked and the key in the ignition I suspect that part of the system to be inoperative anyway, why have the alarm powered when the key is in right? I do have enough electrical tooling to measure pretty much everything if I needed to so I could hook up an amp meter in the mains to see what the car actually uses over time.

    Regarding the rr.net article, I did not perform all tests yet but started with the most simple test of them all: see if the alternator provides enough power. Measuring the battery voltage @2krpm does not give me 14.4 volts under any load and this is between the positive terminal and the alternator housing. This may have something to do with the aux battery setup, see down below for an explanation. Still, 13.8 - 14.0 volts is something I always achieve so I guess that although a bit on the low side, it should still suffice to keep the main battery topped up.

    I did recharge the main battery once I noticed the voltage to be down, recharging with the same regulated power supply I got it back up to < 0.01c charge current within 30 minutes or so, leading me to believe that the battery itself is just on it's way out and not that the car has used up that much standing still. Not sure if I can measure it this way though. I wonder why, since I am not of the opinion that the alternator voltage is too low for the application, my honda's usually do not get 14.4volts but also hover around 13.8-14. And yes I know, the BECM just loves waking up

    A stronger alternator is indeed on my wishlist, I was thinking about this one: Land Rover Range Rover High Output Alternators
    Regarding the aux setup, it is painfully underrated and designed. This is one of those occasions where I feel the need to try things out before I fix them up properly so I reused an already present relay and wiring setup that was used to power a (horse?) trailer. There is a 40amp automotive relay near the battery that isolates the aux from the mains when the engine is not running, or at least that is the idea. To detect if the engine is in fact running they have spliced the relay into the alternator feed line. Whenever I turn the ignition on the relay starts flapping like nobody's business so a steadfast rule is; start the engine immediately and do not linger. I wonder if the current draw of the relay, small as it is, interferes with the output voltage of the alternator. I have yet to dismantle this setup to check. Anyway, from that relay (with built in fuse) a 4mm2 wire, maybe 6, runs to the batteries in the back. In other words the voltage drop over that cable is quite considerable when the currents are high (ie, empty batteries). For me it works since it functions as a resistor, limiting the current drain to the aux batteries and preventing my alternator being overloaded.

    Yes the wires run warm to the touch but not hot, else I would have thrown it out. My aux battery setup consists of 3 90Ah gel batteries and after running al my gear and fridge for 4 days the voltage had dropped to around 12.0volts which is pretty near empty for a gel. (empty for a gel is 11.8volts iirc) Recharging anywhere between 200 and 270Ah in 6 hours requires quite a large current. I guess that is why a 6 hour trip was not enough to get the batteries back up to spec.

    I have tested all 3 batteries individually before I hooked them up in the back, one settles down at 12.75, one at 12.78 and the third at 12.65. The lowest capacity battery drains the good ones down to that I reckon. It's just a free test setup with worn batteries so I am not worried for now I did charge the entire system, again with the same power supply, the day before I left. The fridge was on overnight but the 6 hour trip to the abenteuer must have certainly recharged that tiny bit I would have lost, right?

    Back to the main problem; the main battery: Given that the BECM is very happy to load the battery, there is enough power beeing used by the vehicle when running, etc. it might be a good idea to start looking into a battery with a better PSoC characteristic and can handle the high under the hood temperatures next to the very hot V8 which no longer has the heat shields around the exhaust manifold (since they rotted away). Not sure what technology to use as of yet but when the time comes to replace this battery I hope to have made an informed decision. Any inputs are more than welcome!

    Cheers,
    -P

  9. #9
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    An update to this thread:

    I disconnected the relay setup from the alternator feed line and loo and behold, to no ones surprise the output voltage of the alternator raised by at least 200mv. In other words, the voltage drop over the relay in parallel to the alternators field coil affects the output voltage of the alternator noticeably. So, I need to upgrade to a better suited aux battery setup at the very least to keep the main range rover circuits happy

    I have not made any real progress into finding a better suited battery for the mains yet, I suspect I will just stay with the lead acid tech for now. For my aux I might consider a lead crystal at some point. It turns out that a dutch company makes these.

    Finally, I was at the frontrunner shop this weekend and they had a ctek 140A set 20% off. This does look like a great deal so more food for thought.

    Cheers,
    -P

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