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Thread: Lithium Battery Install Instructions

  1. #1
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    Lithium Battery Install Instructions

    Howdy all

    I had a previous thread saying I was installing a new lithium based DBS in my D4 5 seater and I've completed the job. The instructions are attached for all to see.

    Have fun.
    Rod.

    Lithium Battery Install.pdf
    Last edited by rocket rod; 22nd January 2020 at 08:32 PM. Reason: Revised Attachment
    Rod

    D4 MY16 5 seat TDV6 - LLAMS, Custom Drawers, OL Bar, Toyo Open Country, GOE Rims, Lithium DBS, eDiff, OA Long Range Tank, GAP Tool, Tracklander rack, Mitch Hitch, TPMS & Safari Snorkel

  2. #2
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    Nice write up....

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    Yes, great write up. Thanks for going to the trouble.

  4. #4
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    Hi Rod and while I would prefer to keep out of this thread, but you are making statements and assumptions that just don’t add up.


    First and foremost, how do you figure that the 80-90Ah of lithium is about three times that of a 55Ah Optima?


    Even if you only discharge the Optima down to 20% SoC, it is still half around that of your lithium, and with you cranking battery, you would have had about the same usable capacity for a fraction of the price.


    Then you ”suggest” that if someone intends to do a similar setup, that they can use THINNER 8B&S cabling.


    NO, you have a variable voltage alternator and this means that where there are long cable distances, from the alternator to the DC/DC device, you MUST run thicker cable to try to compensate for when the alternator runs at a lower operating voltage, other wise the DC/DC device will actually REDUCE its charging current to counter the lower input voltage.


    Next, and a warning for you, you can not charge a battery with a DC/DC device located at a distance from each other.


    Read your installation manual. ALL DC/DC devices must be located as close as possible to the battery they are charging, other wise you risk continually under charging the battery.


    You stated in your previous thread that your TRAXIDE setup didn’t run you fridge for more than a night. At the time, I suggested there may be a problem.


    From what you are posting up, it sounds like it was an operational problem, not a system problem.


    If you chose not to allow the cranking battery to be used to run your fridge, then you caused 2 operational problems. 1st, you halve the amount of battery capacity available.


    2nd, you made this worse because by keeping your cranking battery fully charged, the D4’s BMS would see the cranking that battery was fully charged so it would run the alternator at a lower voltage, which slowed the charging of the Optima.


    There is a heap more that you need to address but, you have gone from a system, when used properly, that would have provided at least 80Ah of accessories power, that only needed an hours drive to replace, to a system with a similar usable capacity that will now take around 4 to 5 hours to replace the same amount of used capacity.


    This has cost you a fortune, to go backwards?

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by drivesafe View Post
    Hi Rod and while I would prefer to keep out of this thread, but you are making statements and assumptions that just don’t add up.


    First and foremost, how do you figure that the 80-90Ah of lithium is about three times that of a 55Ah Optima?


    Even if you only discharge the Optima down to 20% SoC, it is still half around that of your lithium, and with you cranking battery, you would have had about the same usable capacity for a fraction of the price.


    Then you ”suggest” that if someone intends to do a similar setup, that they can use THINNER 8B&S cabling.


    NO, you have a variable voltage alternator and this means that where there are long cable distances, from the alternator to the DC/DC device, you MUST run thicker cable to try to compensate for when the alternator runs at a lower operating voltage, other wise the DC/DC device will actually REDUCE its charging current to counter the lower input voltage.


    Next, and a warning for you, you can not charge a battery with a DC/DC device located at a distance from each other.


    Read your installation manual. ALL DC/DC devices must be located as close as possible to the battery they are charging, other wise you risk continually under charging the battery.


    You stated in your previous thread that your TRAXIDE setup didn’t run you fridge for more than a night. At the time, I suggested there may be a problem.


    From what you are posting up, it sounds like it was an operational problem, not a system problem.


    If you chose not to allow the cranking battery to be used to run your fridge, then you caused 2 operational problems. 1st, you halve the amount of battery capacity available.


    2nd, you made this worse because by keeping your cranking battery fully charged, the D4’s BMS would see the cranking that battery was fully charged so it would run the alternator at a lower voltage, which slowed the charging of the Optima.


    There is a heap more that you need to address but, you have gone from a system, when used properly, that would have provided at least 80Ah of accessories power, that only needed an hours drive to replace, to a system with a similar usable capacity that will now take around 4 to 5 hours to replace the same amount of used capacity.


    This has cost you a fortune, to go backwards?
    Tim, this is not an anti Traxide install, it's a different one, for different reasons. I only mentioned the Traxide setup to state that I already had a cable running from the front to back.

    1. You may not have read my reasons to do this. I don't want to use the starting battery, or part of it, to run the fridge/accessories!
    2. From my understanding AGMs (Optima 55A) should not be discharged lower than 50% capacity i.e. about 30A. The 100A lithium can be discharged to say 80% that's where I get my estimate of 3 times capacity.
    3. I did state the charging time with this setup is longer as the charger is only 25A. Remember the "I live in WA and everywhere is a long way" statement.
    4. Projecta recommend 8 B&S cabling through out and up to 5m. I know this can cause voltage drop, but these guys designed it so why should I disagree. If someone wishes to put bigger cable in then go ahead.
    5. The charger is close to the battery, about 700mm in fact. I presume you mean when I connect the trailer and I agree this is getting long, although in my case it's probably 4m. I still have AGM on the trailer so I'm most likely to only charge this with solar in that case. The trailer battery is always fully charged before leaving home so charging it on the road is not a big issue for me.
    6. I know why you're saying "2nd, you made this worse because by keeping your cranking battery fully charged" but it does sound odd doesn't it, that you're suggesting I shouldn't keep my starting battery fully charged.
    7. Yes it is expensive, lithiums are, but I'm hoping to get many years of use out of it. Time will tell.




    Rod

    D4 MY16 5 seat TDV6 - LLAMS, Custom Drawers, OL Bar, Toyo Open Country, GOE Rims, Lithium DBS, eDiff, OA Long Range Tank, GAP Tool, Tracklander rack, Mitch Hitch, TPMS & Safari Snorkel

  6. #6
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    Hi again Rod and your reply is not based on reality.


    Quote Originally Posted by rocket rod View Post
    1. You may not have read my reasons to do this. I don't want to use the starting battery, or part of it, to run the fridge/accessories!

    What do you think you will achieve by not using your cranking battery? With the system you already had, when used as intended, you would have a longer lifespan from your cranking battery, so less likely to fail as compared to what you have now. So no improvement, just a waste of a good available energy source.




    Quote Originally Posted by rocket rod View Post
    2. From my understanding AGMs (Optima 55A) should not be discharged lower than 50% capacity i.e. about 30A. The 100A lithium can be discharged to say 80% that's where I get my estimate of 3 times capacity.

    Your “understanding” is based on what the sellers of lithium batteries tell you, but is not based on reality.
    Optima specifically state that their Yellowtop batteries can be cycled down to 0% SoC and I compared the difference based on only cycling down to 20%.



    Quote Originally Posted by rocket rod View Post
    3. I did state the charging time with this setup is longer as the charger is only 25A. Remember the "I live in WA and everywhere is a long way" statement.

    This is not an advantage, it is just a justification for fitting an inferior system over what you had. And while you may drive for 5 hours, most people only drive for 2.5 to 4 hours when towing a caravan.
    In your case, where you think you are going to be charging a 120Ah AGM battery in your trailer. Even if this battery is only discharged down to 50% SoC, you are now looking at a 10+ hour drive, to achieve what your TRAXIDE setup could achieve in around a 2 hour drive.




    Quote Originally Posted by rocket rod View Post
    4. Projecta recommend 8 B&S cabling through out and up to 5m. I know this can cause voltage drop, but these guys designed it so why should I disagree. If someone wishes to put bigger cable in then go ahead.

    I have already covered this. By using thinner wire, you cause a longer drive time needed when the vehicle has a variable voltage alternator operation.



    Quote Originally Posted by rocket rod View Post
    5. The charger is close to the battery, about 700mm in fact. I presume you mean when I connect the trailer and I agree this is getting long, although in my case it's probably 4m. I still have AGM on the trailer so I'm most likely to only charge this with solar in that case. The trailer battery is always fully charged before leaving home so charging it on the road is not a big issue for me.

    As above, if you need to charge this ( or a lithium battery in the future ) you are looking at a 10+ hour drive time.



    Quote Originally Posted by rocket rod View Post
    6. I know why you're saying "2nd, you made this worse because by keeping your cranking battery fully charged" but it does sound odd doesn't it, that you're suggesting I shouldn't keep my starting battery fully charged.

    Your TRAXIDE setup, when used as intended, not only kept your cranking battery in a higher state of charge than your new setup does, but the TRAXIDE setup also kept your battery in a better condition, while you drove around town between trips. This all helps to extend the operating lifespan of your cranking battery.
    So your cranking battery was more likely to last longer than it will now.
    The TRAXIDE setup meant you had more usable power while camped, and if you used this cranking battery power while camped, when you next drove your D4, because the D4’s BMS would see that your cranking battery was in need of a charge, the alternator would run at a higher voltage for a longer time. Thus charging both the cranking battery and auxiliary battery ( and your trailer battery ) in a shorter time.
    But as you were not using your cranking battery, the BMS was ( and will now be ) running the alternator at a lower voltage, which lowers the voltage at the DC/DC device. This problem was covered above.


    So even if you drive for long periods, you have laid out a lot of money for no gain and you have actually increased the chances of your cranking battery failing sooner.


    Rod, I sell lithium batteries, but in situations like yours, I do not promote their use, as they are an expensive DISADVANTAGE, not an improvement over what you already had.

  7. #7
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    Lithium Battery Install Instructions

    I have a defer and also prefer leave the starter isolated when engine is off.....battery seems to do fine although recently ive entered the 21 century and installed an isolator that allow charging from aux when solar is connected.

    Always an interesting read.......DBS systems.

    I guess so long as the owner of the system is happy than that go a long way.....geez go look suspension, engine upgrade etc, there is probably a perfect setup for all but not in reality.

    Rocket Rod, please keep us posted on the performance of the install.

    Hmm, I did send an inquiry to Traxide asking about lithium batteries, chasing supply of battery only.

  8. #8
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    Thanks for the write up Rod. It's great to read about and see new projects such as this because it keeps things fresh and moving forward with ideas and technology. It sounds like a plausible setup to me and I am keen to hear about your real-world results and any mods you make in the long run. Thank you also for spending the cash to see if it works for your situation. Without dropping the "expense" paradigm that some hold dearly, we would never get to experience alternatives such as this. And the write-up was a nice change to read instead of climate change doom and gloom! Matti
    A few Landies - current = 2009 D3 2.7 Auto with some rusty bits hanging off it.

  9. #9
    josh.huber Guest
    I've ran some test lately. Since starting my new job, fridge on full time. Variable voltage cut out on it. The truth is. If you don't get below 12.4v at start up you don't get a BMS response. So like Tim is saying. The DC/DC system will work hard to do it's 25a and that's all it'll do.
    If you just used his isolators. You would get whatever it could throw at you. The alternator is 190a from memory.
    Tim only speaks from experience and tries to save people money. He also sells in the market your in and there for could make money from it if it was worthwhile.
    I'm not bagging you for what you have done to try to improve your setup.
    But at the same time I am supporting tims view that it isn't cost effective or using the vehicle system to its potential .

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by josh.huber View Post
    I've ran some test lately. Since starting my new job, fridge on full time. Variable voltage cut out on it. The truth is. If you don't get below 12.4v at start up you don't get a BMS response. So like Tim is saying. The DC/DC system will work hard to do it's 25a and that's all it'll do.
    If you just used his isolators. You would get whatever it could throw at you. The alternator is 190a from memory.
    Tim only speaks from experience and tries to save people money. He also sells in the market your in and there for could make money from it if it was worthwhile.
    I'm not bagging you for what you have done to try to improve your setup.
    But at the same time I am supporting tims view that it isn't cost effective or using the vehicle system to its potential .
    I think you’ve missed the OP minimum requirement.

    1. Doesn’t want to use starter as part of usable capacity, the wants a system to isolate when engine is shut down

    2. Wants to use lithium, therefore DC-DC is pretty much a certainty.....and give him the capacity he wants. Pretty much all my research leads to needing a DC-DC.

    Sure from here on in he might not have it all squared away as the ‘perfect’ install but at least he is having a crack.

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