S2a / Defender Hybrid advice..

**Lotz-A-Landies** · 11th September 2007, 01:58 PM

Flagg and John

Have been a bit naughty at work today. Have just been reading Vehicle Standards Bulletin 14 Section LH http://www.dotars.gov.au/roads/safet...s_3Feb2006.pdf
and in particular Code LH 5 which states in-part the modified vehicle must continue to comply with all ADRs, VSRs, Acts and Regulations applicable to it's date of manufacture
What is allowed under LH5 is construction of a vehicle from an unmodified production vehicle chassis assembly (including engine, transmission, brakes and suspension) and either:

an unmodified body from another vehicle model;
a modified body from another vehicle model; or
a newly constructed body.

The Code then suggests that the vehicle is then considered in 2 seperate components. The vehicle rolling chassis and the vehicle body.
It then goes onto discuss that the ADR compliance is taken to include the rolling chassis as being the engine, brakes,wheels and tyres, suspension and steering.

If you use all the steering and braking components from the donor Defender, you will have no problem complying with the code for the chassis.

The problem will come with the body. Very few (if any) S2a bodies had ADR compliance plates, the main issue will be the "date of manufacture" (DoM) of the modified vehicle. The VSB 14 intro suggests that the DoM of the vehicle will be considered the DOM of the major component, being the chassis and running gear. This means that the S2a body will have to comply with the ADRs for the Defender body, which means that your easiest modification will be, as already suggested, to use the Defender firewall and all the seat belts and anchorages etc.

Hope this helps!

Diana

P.S. If what I asked before is true - I may not be very happy about the outcome of any negotiations you may have with the vendor!

sean0 · 12th September 2007, 09:13 AM

Spot on....because in NSW this hybrid will still be registered as a Defender because the VIN is still with the chassis. So whatever you come up with will have to comply with the 'Fender.

The Defender firewall, door hinges and windscreen mounts will make life very much easier for this conversion in every sense.

Especially since I've always thought that Series were an inch or so narrower than the 'Fenders...

Personally I think you'd be better off going the Stage 1 route rather than 2A. I just can't see the set back grill working. But then that'd be a Defender then wouldn't it....damn.

**JDNSW** · 12th September 2007, 10:34 AM

Originally Posted by sean0

........

Especially since I've always thought that Series were an inch or so narrower than the 'Fenders...
........

You might have thoughts, but in fact, basic body dimensions are identical from Series 2 to current Defenders. (Series 1 was narrower and differed in a number of other respect, as much within Series 1 production as from subsequent Series).

The Defender is wider than the Series 2/2a/3 only in the track and the mudguard flares needed to cover the wider track. The Ninety rear body is longer than the 88, but the 110 is the same as the 109.

John

**Lotz-A-Landies** · 12th September 2007, 11:13 AM

Originally Posted by JDNSW

You might have thoughts, but in fact, basic body dimensions are identical from Series 2 to current Defenders. ...
... The Defender is wider than the Series 2/2a/3 only in the track and the mudguard flares needed to cover the wider track. The Ninety rear body is longer than the 88, but the 110 is the same as the 109. John

Isn't it great. The best looking Land Rover - the 5 door wagon was designed and first built in 1959. Everything since has just been tinkering around the edges. But worst of all that tinkering was changing the grade of the aluminium alloy, if the current body is an alloy at all.

Perhaps you may still be able to get the Series 2a suffix G/Series 3 look by reducing the front to rear profile of the radiator support panel even if it is to just an inch or so. You may be able to move the radiator to the rear slightly and still leave enough room for the engine fan.

It would be the best of both worlds.

Pics will be required as the project unfolds.

Diana

**BigJon** · 12th September 2007, 11:58 AM

Originally Posted by Lotz-A-Landies

, if the current body is an alloy at all.

.

Diana

The term alloy refers to a blend of metals. Steel is an alloy based in Iron. I can't think of any vehicles that use metal panels that aren't an alloy of some sort.

**scrambler** · 12th September 2007, 12:15 PM

Originally Posted by BigJon

The term alloy refers to a blend of metals. Steel is an alloy based in Iron. I can't think of any vehicles that use metal panels that aren't an alloy of some sort.

And Aluminium (so I'm told) is too brittle to use pure. All "aluminium" in commercial use is an alloy.

**JDNSW** · 12th September 2007, 12:42 PM

Originally Posted by Lotz-A-Landies

Isn't it great. The best looking Land Rover - the 5 door wagon was designed and first built in 1959. Everything since has just been tinkering around the edges. But worst of all that tinkering was changing the grade of the aluminium alloy, if the current body is an alloy at all.
.........
Diana

I am inclined to agree with you on looks. Every now and then I think of getting one to replace my County - but then compare driving that with driving the 2a, and decide that for long distances, the coils (plus power steering and the Isuzu) have it!
And not everyone is aware that the 107 Series 1 wagon continued after all other lwb Series 1s had gone to 109" wheelbase, but actually continued on sale until the Series 2 wagon appeared in 1959, although I suspect it was designed quite a bit earlier than this, especially since the Series 2 release, originally planned for 1957, was put back by at least six months to see how the Austin Gipsy was received (and whether Rover would have to develop independent suspension for the Series 2).

I'm not sure the problem is the aluminium alloy used, although that might be part of it, but the main problems in my view is that the skinning is a lot thinner. Not to mention the lack of galvanising on exposed steelwork.

John

**Lotz-A-Landies** · 12th September 2007, 01:45 PM

Originally Posted by JDNSW

I am inclined to agree with you on looks. Every now and then I think of getting one to replace my County - but then compare driving that with driving the 2a, and decide that for long distances, the coils (plus power steering and the Isuzu) have it!...

Mal Story and a few others thinks that the County is a better vehicle than the Defender, so stick with the Isuzu!

Good maintenance can be cheaper in the long run than replacemernt.

Originally Posted by JDNSW

I'm not sure the problem is the aluminium alloy used, although that might be part of it, but the main problems in my view is that the skinning is a lot thinner. Not to mention the lack of galvanising on exposed steelwork. John

Quick can someone go out with a micrometer and check the gauge of the skin of their Defender!!!

John you could be right about the thinning of the skin, as well as the loss of alloy, I have a pair of County rear quarter panels and the skin does seem softer, (easier to scratch), than the same panels from a 2a sitting next to them.

In regard to the galvanising, I absolutely have to agree with you, particularly for the bumper bar.

I wonder what will happen when they are "Land Tatras"

C Ya
Diana

**flagg** · 12th September 2007, 05:27 PM

Thanks Guys - so many helpful comments I'm not sure where to start.

From what I've read, gathered and been able to find out - I'd have to change the cut away guards, headlights, grill and windscreen. My problem is that these are the exact things that I want to keep ! The whole reason that I want to make the hyrbid

So basically If I pursue this, I'll end up making a defender.. which is kinda annoying, cause if that is the case I may as well go and buy one :-/

DAMN DAMN DAMN DAMN (etc..)

humph.
flagg.

**Lotz-A-Landies** · 12th September 2007, 06:01 PM

Originally Posted by flagg

... So basically If I pursue this, I'll end up making a defender.. which is kinda annoying, cause if that is the case I may as well go and buy one :-/ DAMN DAMN DAMN DAMN (etc..)

humph.
flagg.

Flagg

All is not lost

You just have to go about it the right way.

The defender brake and clutch pedals and their master cylinders as well as the box can all be fitted to the series firewall.
The Td5 wiring harness and black box can be grafted into the series wiring.

Therefore the compliance of the rolling chassis is O.K.

What type of dash/instrument panel do you want?

Series 2a
Series 3/Stage 1
Defender

Confirm with the RTA Technical Branch (or whomever) about what ADR the body will have to comply with. Will your choice of dash meet the RTA requirements?

Defender = Yes
Series 3 = Probably
Series 2a = Possibly not

Use the defender seats and the seat belt anchorages and they will comply with the Defender ADRs - the seat belt anchorages are pretty much the same anyway.
Do some measuring on an assembled Defender Td5 to see what clearance there is between the front of the fan and the rear of the radiator.

Is there any space to move the radiator rearwards?
If not: Can I remove the fan and fit electric (thermo operated fans) to save space?
With the radiator moved back as far as it can be and still clear the steering etc, will the front of the radiator be at or behind the front face of the S2a Bonnet?
How thin can I make the radiator support/grill panel on the 2a and still fit under the front of the bonnet?

After you have done this you may be plesantly surprised to find that the series body will fit with minimal modifications.

If worst comes to worst, you can always move the engine and transmission, to the rear a couple of inches. and shorten/lengthen the drive shafts. A very simple modification.

Addit: The easiest conversion is to use the Defender firewall, seat box and front floor panels.

From the seat box back the Series body should fit after you weld in the appropriate brackets!
The series guards and doors will fit to a Defender firewall!
The Series 3 screen can be adapted to the Defender firewall!
The Series 3 anti-burst door locks should comply with current ADR. They are a bolt on replacement for the earlier locks.

You may have to use Disco 1 steel rims to bring them in as far under the guards as possible, otherwise the wheelarch extensions will have to be fitted.

Don't give up. And post lots of pics as you progress.

Diana

Thread: S2a / Defender Hybrid advice..

Thread Tools

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions