Busted Dyneema Rope on Tigerz11 Winch

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Originally Posted by Tank

Thanks for that, my winch has an internal brake so might have to reconsider, Regards Frank.

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From what I can find out the internally braked winches only get hot if the winch is powered out against the brake. Yes, its a limitation compared to an external brake, but there are a lot of people happily using synthetic rope on internally braked winches without any issues.

FWIW - this is quite an interesting article on the difference between Plasma and Dyneema - especially the sections on different fibre sizes and there effect on abrasion resistance, and the reference to Dyneema suffering crush fatigue on the drum. The company is only selling plasma so it could be a bit biased though ...
Plasma Vs Dyneema - PlasmaRope.com.au - Fibre winch ropes and extension kits

Steve

Can we recheck the link pleae, can't make work. Wait, found.

The resistance to crushing as a benefit is it's downfall when it comes to the rope grip on the drum. I've seen natural rope catch on fire during slip tests and synthetics melt.

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Originally Posted by Gaudough

However I got to the point of having 1 full layer plus two turns left on the drum as the Disco started to get pulled up the yard with all 4 wheels locked and the palm tree bending but not coming out of the ground. I pretty much stalled the winch so I moved the attachment point up the palm tree and recommenced.

More bend on the palm tree then the winch kept going the tree stopped bending and the Disco stopped coming forward. A quick check shows the rope broken 5mm from the attachment lug on the drum and maybe 3 turns of the rope are slightly melted on the side that was against the drum.

Now a whole layer of rope plus a few turns on the second should be sufficient to stop the rope slipping. Remember I had already put a lot of load on it in the the first test.

And.... it seems the little screw that holds the lug into the winch drum is stronger than the rope.

What do I do, can I trust this rope. I will have to remove the slightly marked section of rope, say 3m, and get a new lug crimped on.

This rope is supposed to be about 8.5t or 17,000lbs breaking strain and I broke it with a 12000lb winch.

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Phew, when you guys get into detail... :wacko:

Anyway, back to the OP.

I guess the lesson to be learned here is that palm trees are right buggers to pull out of the ground unless you do it properly.

I would certainly whack the damaged portion of line off and do whatever you want to attach a new eyelet, assuming you want a new eyelet. I would also take some time to learn about safe practices whilst using a winch, and how t use a snatch block.

You can trust the line. You might not want to trust whoever put that first eyelet on because it sounds, from your description, that they have previously damaged the line when they crimped the eyelet.

Personally I would not crimp anything onto a synthetic multi-strand line (braid, or whatever). If anything I would either tape up the end or splice it.

Alan

Back to the palm, I cut one 11 years ago and only this year could pull it, with my 12000 and my dads high mount and still had to cut some of the root ball away.

There seems to be two recommended materials to use for 4WD winching apps, HMPE (High Molecular Weight Polyethylene) & LCP (Liquid Crystal Polymer). LCP's are about 40-50% dearer than HMPE's so they're out unless you like to fore apprentices weekly. From what I can see in the comparison article plasma is made of it's raw product, spectra. The other, Dyneema (aka Dynamica).

The Spectra, is made into plasma(seems to be a patented name/process by Puget Sound Ropes) using a proprietary methods by only one company by the look of it. Other materials made from Spectra exist but are not technically plasma as the Spectra to Plasma method is different.

The biggest difference between Plasma and Dyneema is the size of the individual filaments. Plasma's are larger and so more resistant to abrasion (both internal & external), flex fatigue and fatigue caused by rolling over sheaves such as a snatch block. The rate of degradation seems to be almost 300% grater for Dyneema than Plasma. Drum storage fatigue is approximately 30% faster for Dyneema, although this was tested on a marine drum winch which was outdoors and subject to more weathering than a rope on a 4WD winch may see.

As a comparison fibre core steel rope is never used (well should never) in marine or wet applications as when the core gets wet it starts the rusting from the inside out and you wont seen it until it's too late. Even if well oiled when new the repeated winding/tensioning process will compress the oil out of the fiber core and reabsorb the moisture. So steel wire core cable is preferred, however it has a larger preferred storage drum radius to prevent premature fatigue of the core wire.

Note: All this was taken and compiled from a variety of sources, both web and book plus information from technical/sales at two different rope suppliers.

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Originally Posted by disco2hse

Phew, when you guys get into detail... :wacko:

Anyway, back to the OP.

I guess the lesson to be learned here is that palm trees are right buggers to pull out of the ground unless you do it properly.

I would certainly whack the damaged portion of line off and do whatever you want to attach a new eyelet, assuming you want a new eyelet. I would also take some time to learn about safe practices whilst using a winch, and how t use a snatch block.

You can trust the line. You might not want to trust whoever put that first eyelet on because it sounds, from your description, that they have previously damaged the line when they crimped the eyelet.

Personally I would not crimp anything onto a synthetic multi-strand line (braid, or whatever). If anything I would either tape up the end or splice it.

Alan

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Crimping the eyelet to the end of the rope is perfectly fine,as the eyelet has no load bearing.It is used to hold the end of the rope in a fixed position so that it can be wound on the drum only.
With my 12000lb TDS winch,I have used it many times with the original fitment rope,and it is still going strong.But I am careful when using it,and try and lay something between the rope and anything I think it may chafe on.I also wash the rope after every use,but I don't use the washing machine:eek:as I value my teeth,and my rope has a metal thimble in the end where it attaches to the recovery hook.I think that the thimble is very important,as it gives an even radius attachment to the hook,which helps spread the load evenly and helps to stop the rope from kinking.Most of the winch ropes I see for sale here don't come with a thimble at all,just a braided loop at the end of the rope.I also have a new winch rope that I carry for emergencies.It is known as Amsteel Blue Dyneema rope,although mine is green.When it arrived,the first thing I noticed was how different it felt and looked to the rope that came on the winch.It is used by a lot of the competition vehicles in the U.S. where it has a fantastic record.And it is available for a very good price compared to what you buy here.I also have a length of the same material as a winch extension rope,with a thimble at both ends.It certainly beats a winch extension strap,as it is much easier to handle,weighs less and takes up a lot less room in the recovery box,and the price was excellent.

Wayne

According to the people who do this stuff crimping is fine as long as:

For the end that had the drum retainer clip thing (they use battery cable terminals and file) leave 10-15mm out the end.

IF, and you can but it's not the preferred option you want to swage it, tape under the area where the swage will be.

And they said they should always have a hard eye (thimble) in them whether spliced or swaged, but having said that a soft eye is useful for joining them together by passing each rope through the others eye.

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Originally Posted by LowRanger

Crimping the eyelet to the end of the rope is perfectly fine,as the eyelet has no load bearing.It is used to hold the end of the rope in a fixed position so that it can be wound on the drum only.
With my 12000lb TDS winch,I have used it many times with the original fitment rope,and it is still going strong.But I am careful when using it,and try and lay something between the rope and anything I think it may chafe on.I also wash the rope after every use,but I don't use the washing machine:eek:as I value my teeth,and my rope has a metal thimble in the end where it attaches to the recovery hook.I think that the thimble is very important,as it gives an even radius attachment to the hook,which helps spread the load evenly and helps to stop the rope from kinking.Most of the winch ropes I see for sale here don't come with a thimble at all,just a braided loop at the end of the rope.I also have a new winch rope that I carry for emergencies.It is known as Amsteel Blue Dyneema rope,although mine is green.When it arrived,the first thing I noticed was how different it felt and looked to the rope that came on the winch.It is used by a lot of the competition vehicles in the U.S. where it has a fantastic record.And it is available for a very good price compared to what you buy here.I also have a length of the same material as a winch extension rope,with a thimble at both ends.It certainly beats a winch extension strap,as it is much easier to handle,weighs less and takes up a lot less room in the recovery box,and the price was excellent.

Wayne

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Ok I wasnt sure about the use of the crimped end, but it makes sense that it is not there to prevent the rope slipping on the drum but just hold it when spooling on the rope.

Question is how many turns would people regard as a minimum to leave on the drum to prevent it slipping under load.

And the palm tree was tough to get out. I cut through the trunk most of the way but couldnt get the last bit as it was in the dirt. Took a big crowbar and a lot of grunt to get it out.

Gordo

Have a bit of a look here
OKoffroad - 4x4 Recovery Gear - News 'N Views - 4x4 Accessories
Go to the section on winch rope.There is a write up on the fitting of rope to the drum,also on the crimped end.And they also make a winch rope retainer,which is a webbing strap made to retain at least 4 turns of rope on the drum,and alleviate any pressure on the retaining screw in the drum.
They are also great to deal with.

Wayne

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Originally Posted by isuzurover

Fair enough, but that is fairly specialised. I was talking about the average rigger who would work somewhere like a crane (wet) hire company.

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then you mean a dogger, but we're getting into semantics now....

the reason I tie the dynamic (the generic term I use for any of the nylon looking type) ropes onto the drum is simple, IF youve got it down near the end, it takes a load for some reason the tension comes off (the vehicle your recovering gains some traction) but then comes back on you can wind up with the rope unspooling even though you are still winding in. If the rope is tied on providing you dont exceed the limit of the rope when you hit the end of the run the round turn and 2 half hitches will hold the load, an eye crimp wont.

IMHO 8 turns is the minimum safe number of turns to have on the drum and they must be neat and tight, While it breaks all the regs While you put the inital load on your winch pull the rope out by hand (gloves on) and maintain a firm pull on the rope while you winch it in. Once the rope starts to take tension from whatever you're trying to recover take one last look at your setup and then back away your minimum safety distance (1.5x the longest exposed run of rope from ANY point of the recovery)

Quote: "As a comparison fibre core steel rope is never used (well should never) in marine or wet applications as when the core gets wet it starts the rusting from the inside out and you wont seen it until it's too late. Even if well oiled when new the repeated winding/tensioning process will compress the oil out of the fiber core and reabsorb the moisture. So steel wire core cable is preferred, however it has a larger preferred storage drum radius to prevent premature fatigue of the core wire."

A Fibre core in the middle of a 6 strand wire rope is there to lubricate the wires, it is soaked in a penetrating lubricant at build time and can be re-lubricated by soaking in said lubricant, I used to use half a 44 with some diesel and clean waste oil.
6 strand fibre core wire rope should never be used on a winch or run over sheaves as it will crush flat and be damaged.
Winch (and Tirfors) wire rope has a wire core, as in 7 strand wire cable found on most winch drums, the centre wire core prevents the wire cable from sqashing flat on the winch drum or when running over a sheave/pulley as in a snatch block, unless the groove in the pulley is too wide, if the grove in the pulley is too narrow it will crush and damage the cable. Too small a dia. pulley in a snatch block will also damage a wire cable, the outside of the cable gets stretched and the inside gets compressed, this eventually leads to the failure of the cable, so if possible buy the largest size pulley (snatch block) practible, with the correct size groove for your wire, Regards Frank.