Thread: Hand vs electric winch: solo travelling

Originally Posted by Blknight.aus

heya frank...

maybe you should look at whats actually happening.

tell you what, go setup your "rope under the vehicle" recovery and then grab some photos of the rope under tension as it goes off the drum, around the fairlead roller then as it rubs across the bottom of your barwork.

measure the effective radii of those "bends" and let me know how they compare to the minimum reccomended radii for SWR through a pully also check the width of the support flanges on those 2 points and compare it to your winch rope diameter for us.

then measure the relative deflection directions of the rope coming off the winch and then going over the failead roller unless youve got your winch incorrectly wound (or correctly wound but incorrectly mounted) and have it overwound and not underwound then you're doing a completely opposite direction bend with an effective distance between the 2 of just a few inches.

If you look at the included angles and direction of angle in the diagram I have 2 of the bends are the same direction and none of them run over an under diameter unsupported roller but all of them sit in the appropriate size pully. All of the pullies are placed at sufficient distance to negate the issue unless you were doing something silly like using older style rope thats prone to walking its lays.

Additionally, I dont even need to get into the rigging book to dispute your understanding of the facts in play here...

Which is all nice enough right up untill



which reads like you're reccomending to do exactly what it is that makes you baulk at using snatch blocks in the first place.

or is there something magic about fairlead rollers that prevent the bit highlighted in blue from happening?

I guess now all thats left is to wait for the pics of your setup.

actually its not, heres an edit for ya tank...

its not that either of us are 100 correct in the way that we winch backwards off the front mounted winch.

its just that because I'm only

1. going against a single recommendation that says "avoid" by having one reversing bend in the setup

where as you are

1. doing the same thing (reversing bend between winch drum and fairlead) as well as
2. taking at least one bend (your fairlead roller) thats massively under the reccomended radius,
3. thats on a flat roller with no grooving to support the rope,
4. then taking another one over a static surface (the bottom of your barwork)
5. which is also not designed to support the rope

I'm doing a lot less wrong than you are.

or do you actually want me to go and read the 22yo riggers guide thats been quoted from by you previously and actually provide the book and verse on the extra 4 things you're doing wrong are wrong.

Dave if you're in a pinch and there is no other way then do it for christs sake, I have done it 2 to 3 times in 30+ years for ****'s sake. Most times I only had to winch a couple of feet to get out of trouble, your idea of running over multiple snatch blocks one way then another is MORE damaging that running backwards over a roller.
Now it seems you are all experts when it comes to rigging and you consider what I say on the subject to be my idea of how it should be.
WRONG any statement I make re: rigging here is straight out of the Riggers handbook and if you wish to argue that you know more than the people that publish these books, well go and argue with them.
From now on when there is a query, you can put your years of experience and study together and solve all of the forum posters problems with your " he said that and I heard from someone that the world is flat experts, cause so and so said so" theories, just don't ask me, I don't give a ****, Regards Frank.

Boy has this thread got off topic,although it is interesting and AFAIR is a rerun of the same arguments about 10 years ago. Creates lots of passion but good to see good nature prevails.

I have had experience with Tirfors about 20 years ago when I was off-roading a VW type 3. Aside from the hard work, I found that the wire ropes frame for the winch took up lots of roomand weighed a lot .

About 20 years ago I bought a Warn 6000lb winch which came in a steel box with a receiver and fittings for 2 bow shackles, so it can be mounted on the tow bar or front recovery points with a cradle, or to the chassis for a sideways pull for that matter. Or you can fab up a receiver on the front as I had with my RRC.

You cannot buy that exact thing any more but you can buy cradles with receivers for winches up to 10,000lbs. If you welded a couple of mount points for shackles on, then you could use front or back. The warn also came with a kit of cable to reach the back bumper with an Anderson plug.

The winch fits neatly in the rear floor of the D2so is not exposed to the weather or UV on the synthetic rope, and can be removed when not needed. Downside is that it takes longer to set up.

It always confuses me a bit when people compare Tirfors to electric winches as Tirfors usually have quite a low capacity 2000kg? And you would have to use quite a few snatch blocks for a difficult recovery and still risk breaking shear pins.
I have been involved in several recoveries over the years but haven't had ever to use my winch to recover myself.LOL

The latest time I was recovered was on the ott when I got stuck towing my 1000kg camper trailer out of cannibal creek, and someone waiting at the top did a single line pull with his 9500lb, for what was a serious load of an RRC towing a 1 tonne camper with the drawbar in the mud.but it did it easily, although I did assist.
So single pull is most likely and often adequate anyway.

Regards Philip A


BTW some 11000lb winches are the same physically as 9500 lb but are lower geared. AFAIR Kingone are like this .

Originally Posted by PhilipA

It always confuses me a bit when people compare Tirfors to electric winches as Tirfors usually have quite a low capacity 2000kg?
.

Ive got a 5000KG one, (and a 2t...) the largest one I've ever seen (thankfully never used it) was in the order of 15T.

Originally Posted by Tank

Trying to work out why most people think you can't winch backwards with an electric winch mounted on the front bar.
That bottom roller on the fairlead is not there for looks.
I have winched out of a bog and other impassable places by running the winch cable under the vehicle and attaching it to a tree behind and pulled my self free with no problems (another reason I don't use synthetic rope).
If I believe I may get stuck in an upcoming bog or I might need to pull myself back up a really steep downhill slope, I run my (wire) cable under the Disco and hook it up to the tow bar, a bit hard to run a cable under a vehicle that's bogged to the chassis and if I get stuck I just run out to an anchor point and winch myself out.
I use this method to pull a vehicle up onto a car trailer hooked up to the back of my Disco, never had a problem with catching or damaging anything underneath, will not work with Dyneema type synthetic ropes, for obvious reasons.
Snatch blocks are useful if used correctly, most have no idea of how to use a snatch block to give a Mechanical Advantage (MA), a stationary snatch block anchored to a tree will actually add up to 20% more load because of the friction caused by the pulley wheel against it's axle.
The only advantage gained by anchoring the SB to a tree, etc. is that you need to run out twice the length cable/rope, i.e. from the vehicle to the tree (snatch block) and back to the vehicle.
By doing this you reduce the number of layers of cable/rope on the winch drum and as we all know (or should know) max. pulling power of a winch is generated with only 1 layer of cable/rope on the drum.
For instance when you look at the specs. of a winches pulling power a 10,000lb rated winch will only ever pull that load at the drum, by the time you fill the drum to capacity your pulling power has dropped to around half the rated advertised pull.
So to get a 2 to 1 MA from a winch you will need 2 snatch blocks 1 attached to the anchor tree, the other to the front of your 4WD, the formula for working out the MA of winch and snatch blocks is: the number of parts of rope supporting the MOVING block. which is attached to the front of the vehicle, the lead rope which is the part of the rope from the winch to the stationary SB is not a supporting rope.
If you want to take MA of SB's buy good quality correct diameter (bigger the better) SB's from a rigging supplier, not some 4WD shop one that has one size to suit all. Kinks and broken wires are mostly caused by wrong size SB's, hope this helps, Regards Frank.

Originally Posted by Tank

Dave if you're in a pinch and there is no other way then do it for christs sake, I have done it 2 to 3 times in 30+ years for ****'s sake. Most times I only had to winch a couple of feet to get out of trouble, your idea of running over multiple snatch blocks one way then another is MORE damaging that running backwards over a roller.
Now it seems you are all experts when it comes to rigging and you consider what I say on the subject to be my idea of how it should be.
WRONG any statement I make re: rigging here is straight out of the Riggers handbook and if you wish to argue that you know more than the people that publish these books, well go and argue with them.
From now on when there is a query, you can put your years of experience and study together and solve all of the forum posters problems with your " he said that and I heard from someone that the world is flat experts, cause so and so said so" theories, just don't ask me, I don't give a ****, Regards Frank.

I actually cant tell if you're being serious, or taking the **** and stiring the pot. so lets try it another way...

hey frank, can you show us in the riggers book (include the link, chapter, page and if possible fig numbers) where it teaches how to run a rope over a fairlead roller and then over a bent steel plate, maybe even the edge of one of those plates and then how to calculate the SWL, MA and the expected life of the rope. Also which particular build of rope it recommends for doing this?

oh also, try getting a more modern rigging book. If you're being serious I bet one of the pictures in one of the many from early this decade for calculating anchorage values is going to make your head go wibbely.

Originally Posted by Blknight.aus

Ive got a 5000KG one, (and a 2t...) the largest one I've ever seen (thankfully never used it) was in the order of 15T.





I actually cant tell if you're being serious, or taking the **** and stiring the pot. so lets try it another way...

hey frank, can you show us in the riggers book (include the link, chapter, page and if possible fig numbers) where it teaches how to run a rope over a fairlead roller and then over a bent steel plate, maybe even the edge of one of those plates and then how to calculate the SWL, MA and the expected life of the rope. Also which particular build of rope it recommends for doing this?

oh also, try getting a more modern rigging book. If you're being serious I bet one of the pictures in one of the many from early this decade for calculating anchorage values is going to make your head go wibbely.

Dave, I guess you don't know it, but the laws of physics haven't changed since JC played fullback for Israel.
You have NO idea of what you're talking about and YOU are having a shot at me for quoting the Facts from the Latest OH&S Riggers Guide.
Don't blame me because you are to lazy to check the facts for yourself, you pick on the fact that I ran a cable under my Disco to get myself out of trouble a few times.
Yet how many on this forum, including you think that having a recovery point under the front of your vehicle is the way to go. Any idiot can see that the rope or cable is in danger of the bottom of the bullbar is likely to crush the rope/cable when the front end drops into a hole or comes up against sheer rock. Not to mention that you all think it is OK to pull a shackle sideways when it is fitted to one of these ridiculous recovery points
with the shackle pin hole orientated in the horizontal plane.
Your ridiculous setup with all those snatch blocks which will stuff a cable real quick to pull a vehicle backwards is a joke, yet you have a shot at me for suggesting a last resort and not the right thing to do by running a cable underneath my vehicle, Don't like, Don't do it. Before you go shooting your mouth off making out your the know it all guru, check that you're not living in a Glass House, OH, and yes I could show you where in the riggers book, as I have on NUMEROUS occasions, which you have totally ignored as Above in this post. Maybe Dave you can show us in "Daves Riggers Guide" where you get your so called facts from, can I get it down at the local library, like the Riggers Guide, last word on this Dave, Regards Frank.

Originally Posted by Tank

Yet how many on this forum, including you think that having a recovery point under the front of your vehicle is the way to go. Any idiot can see that the rope or cable is in danger of the bottom of the bullbar is likely to crush the rope/cable when the front end drops into a hole or comes up against sheer rock.

Really?

explain

Originally Posted by Tank

If I believe I may get stuck in an upcoming bog or I might need to pull myself back up a really steep downhill slope, I run my (wire) cable under the Disco and hook it up to the tow bar

given that the only riggers book listed in this thread is from 1995 and you've quoted it every time... I kinda suspect you ought to prove your references, preferably with something from say, this century. Id hate to think that I wasnt playing the game on your playing field.









Dunno, but I reckon the guys who design the cranes that use the "tank says dont change direction over sheeves it'll root the cable" method of reeving,are probably a hell of a lot more knowledgable than you and probably have more recent set of docs as well. Kinda reckon I'm going to trust them a hell of a lot more than your circa 1960 learning and the 1995 edition of the rigging book.



Probably doesnt help your case all that much when one of the original patents for the container handling crane layout date back to 1962 and theres a link to one thats as far back as 1926

My 1.6 tonne tirfor has a 11mm cable, but is rated to a standard, somebody?
My electric 9500 lb/ 4300 kg winch, 10 mm from memory, is rated by a marketing dept and not to any standard I can find.

the SWR should be compliant to AS 2759 or 3569 or and have a tag to reflect that its been tested.

The winch cable should be the same but if you read the fine print you're likely to find that there'll be a disclaimer that provides the winch is marketed on that, not the strength of its cable.

If you know the construction of the rope its possible to work out its theoretical strength by measuring its thickness grabbing the look up chart to suit and doing some math.


the rough and ready formula is.... 8*(inch fraction*inch fraction)=WLL(t)

which means...

if your rope is half inch accross (measured so its widest) the formula becomes

8*(1/2*1/2)=8*(.25)=2

Originally Posted by AndyG

My 1.6 tonne tirfor has a 11mm cable, but is rated to a standard, somebody?
My electric 9500 lb/ 4300 kg winch, 10 mm from memory, is rated by a marketing dept and not to any standard I can find.

Quick way to calculate SWL of a cable on a winch is Dia.x Dia. x10 and if it is (as it should be ) 7 Strand wire rope add 12% for the 7th. centre strand.
The winch manufacturer calculates the pulling power of the winch with only 1 layer of rope/cable one the drum, by the time you have wound on 30 metres of rope/cable onto the drum the manufacturers rating will have dropped to near half of the rating at the drum. A 10mm dia. 7 strand wire cable will have a SWL of around 1120kgs., so remember a winch is no stronger than the rope/cable it is fitted with, Regards Frank.