Oil for 2L engine

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Originally Posted by chazza

I have read quite a few articles on the web that advocate the use of zinc in oil for older engines, here is one;

"My opinions come from several decades as an oil company rep. the thing you need to keep in mind on the new engine is to use ZDDP. this is the anti wear additive that is no longer in engine oils. if you don't use it in an engine with flat tappets the cam and associated parts will be the first thing to self destruct. you need at least 1200 PPM of ZDDP..." from a member of the Sunbeam Alpine Owners Club of America.

For that reason, and because Penrite appear to agree, I won't be a using a "modern oil" in my Alpine, or in my Series 1. For the small difference in cost, compared to the expense of a new camshaft and followers, I will stick with a formulation that is designed to protect those components,

Cheers Charlie

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Charlie,

Some interesting stuff on the interweb about zddp.
The amount used seems to be tied up with the rating (SC, SD etc.). Has been reduced over the years partly because it causes problems with catalytic convertors.

ZDDP: When, Where, What, Why, How? - Engine Builder Magazine

Colin

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Originally Posted by JDNSW

And was not in the oils that were available when your Series 1 motor was designed and built. Perhaps one of the reasons why Series 2 engines have roller cam followers?

John

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Possibly not - what reference are you referring to?

This quote from Colin's link seems to contradict your statement from an earlier post; "Any oil you can buy today will be superior in all respects to the oil the engine was designed to use." JDNSW

"Some of today’s motor oils can have strong negative effects on older, non-roller lifter design engines as we all have found. It becomes more important as valve train loads increase to use oils that are designed specifically for flat tappet camshafts, as in the use of high performance camshafts and high-pressure valve springs.

Dave Sutton’s sources for this column include Lake Speed, Jr – Certified Lubrication Specialist & Member of the Society of Tribologists and Lubrication Engineers; The American Petroleum Institute web-site; Main GF-5 Site Home website; and the “SAE Automotive Lubricants Reference Book.” You can reach Dave at dsutton@enginebuildermag.com."

Anyway, I don't know much about the subject at all, except that there is considerable evidence that the ZDDP is the best bet for the S1 engine. Interestingly in Colin's link, it mentions that damage has been done to roller-follower engines by modern motor oils!

Cheers Charlie

When this engine was designed (1940), and went into production (1947), lubricating oil was straight mineral oil without additives - differences between lubricating oils depended on the source of crude oil and the cuts used in blending.

Additives did not appear in oils until the 1950s, and specifically enabled engine designers to design with higher pressures between moving parts. Specifically, this applies to flat cam followers against camshafts, which became a critical location as higher loads became necessary as heavier valve springs coped with higher maximum (and average) rpm. Which is exactly what is pointed out in the quote in the last post. The Series 1 engine was not designed to require this sort of lubrication, and does not have a "high performance camshafts and high-pressure valve springs".

The use of ZDDP will provide perhaps improved lubrication, but the degree of improvement will be imperceptible, as the pressures and speeds involved are not high enough.

John

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Originally Posted by JDNSW

When this engine was designed (1940), and went into production (1947), lubricating oil was straight mineral oil without additives - differences between lubricating oils depended on the source of crude oil and the cuts used in blending. Agreed

Additives did not appear in oils until the 1950s, and specifically enabled engine designers to design with higher pressures between moving parts. Specifically, this applies to flat cam followers against camshafts, which became a critical location as higher loads became necessary as heavier valve springs coped with higher maximum (and average) rpm. Which is exactly what is pointed out in the quote in the last post. Agreed; however; in Colin's link it was also pointed out that ZDDP significantly reduced wear on steel upon steel contact. Just because it was not available earlier on, does not mean that it will not have retrospective benefit.The Series 1 engine was not designed to require this sort of lubrication, and does not have a "high performance camshafts and high-pressure valve springs". Agreed

The use of ZDDP will provide perhaps improved lubrication, but the degree of improvement will be imperceptible, as the pressures and speeds involved are not high enough.Imperceptible in what sense? If it prevents premature wear well-and-good.

John

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As you mentioned in an earlier post, the S1 suffered frequently from worn-out camshaft and lifters; so-much-so that Rover designed the roller-lifter 2 1/4 litre engine, which solved the problem. Using oil with a ZDDP additive is not only going to give more anti-scuff protection to a S1 engine than it could have originally had, but is also cost-wise, an insignificant improvement for an owner to make.

Using any modern motor oil is not not always the best thing for an old engine.

I will stick with Penrite's recommendation,

Cheers Charlie

ZDDP isn't the best anti-wear/EP additive, but it's the most cost effective.

As mentioned, modern oils generally use depleted levels of ZDDP (but not eliminated !) for longer cat life.
Anything with a GF-4/5 'fuel economy' designated oil is a no-no for a flat tappet engine IMO, but a good diesel engine oil works well.

There are modern additives including tin napthanate and boron ester additives that probably work better than ZDDP, (and late spec HD diesel oils are loaded with them) but the general public only knows about ZDDP.