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Thread: Project Serenity

  1. #111
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    Thank you for another interesting idea to consider.

    I'm using Penrite 80W-90 mineral gear oil. It's what I plan to use in the swivels, diffs, gearbox and transfer case long term.

    I've been taking measurements 24 hours apart, typically in the evening (this is not strictly true, I've taken some intermediate measures at less than 24 hours, typically around 10 am as well), so temperature differences should be minimal. The issue is only affecting one the swivels, the short side swivel has only gone up a pound or so over 2 weeks of sitting.

    Ben the Project Motivator pointed out I've been thinking about the issue incorrectly. I've been questioning why pre-load is changing, but he correctly asserted I'm measuring dynamic friction, not pre-load.

    Considering changing pre-load (not dynamic friction):
    Increased pre-load would be caused by increased axial loading between the thrust washer in the base of the railko bush and the tapered roller bearing.
    Possible sources:
    • Shims settling, allowing upper pin to move further in, increasing axial force
      • The bolts holding the pin in place do not loosen, indicating the pin is not moving

    • Tapered roller bearing settling
      • This would result in reduced pre-load, not increased pre-load

    • Thrust washer in the base of the tapered roller bearing increasing in thickness. Could be caused by oil absorption
      • The behaviour was observed when the pin was removed and re-fitted without adding oil
      • The behaviour was observed when the thrust washer was first exposed to oil, and observed weeks later after absorption would have finished or at least slowed



    I'm struggling to come up with a plausible reason for pre-load to increase with time.

    Considering changing dynamic friction (excluding changing pre-load):
    There are few moving parts to cause friction in this system - the tapered roller bearing in its races, the radial face of the railko bush, and the axial face or thrust washer in the railko bush.
    Possible sources:
    • Reduced lubrication
      • I have smothered the tapered roller bearing in oil once the issue was observed and it didn't make a difference
      • The thrust washer may be losing lubrication over time
        • For most resets, no extra oil was added to change volume of lubricant present, but it may have run down from the radial face above or could have spread back to a high point on the thrust washer when the pin was removed


    • Surface roughness
      • An unusual surface profile may affect dynamic friction - this could interact with the reduced lubrication points mentioned above.



    It seems it's likely there is something odd with the thrust washer which I am using. Perhaps they are directional? Perhaps mine is directional? I might pull it apart and flip it over just to try that as a theory.

    Nonetheless, Ben the Project Motivator has convinced me to keep moving forward, I think I am reasonably satisfied it will probably wear in OK, but I'll keep it as a watch item for when Serenity is back on the road.

    While I'm here, I might as well do an update on progress.

    • Both half shafts have been rebuilt with new bearing distance pieces, axial roller bearing races, and bearing retaining rings. The universal joints have been replaced. The shafts are a mishmash of parts from 3 different vehicles and all-new moving bits.
    • The diff pinion seal has been replaced. The hardest job was getting the split pin back through the nut. It seems one of the crenellations had moved slightly, so I ended up using a different nut from Serenity's original rear diff (a diff which is only useful as a boat anchor - the axial play in the diff centre bearings can be measured in whole millimetres, and that's not even the worst of it!)
    • The diff housing has had a final clean out
    • The diff has been refitted to its housing. A new gasket has been fitted. The strengthened axle housing I'm using apparently has UNF bolts fitted which I didn't know was an option until moments before we re-fitted the diff, so the old nuts have been reused as I ordered new BSF nuts, not UNF nuts. Ah well. My new parts manual which actually covers later Series 2A models would have been handy a bit earlier.
    • The half shafts have been re-fitted


    Next step, which is what I'm actively avoiding doing by writing this post, is to rebuild the brake backing plates, as about 12 years ago I took all of the adjuster hardware off so I could paint them. Mistakes were made. If anybody has any good photos of brake backing plate hardware (especially the front ones!) I'd be happy to receive them. Nonetheless, I'll battle on.

    A note on this photo - the AF sockets fit, but the BS sockets fit much nicer. I did eventually figure that out, I made the mistake of trusting the workshop manual which suggested AF tools.












    Cheers,
    Martin
    "Serenity" 1964 Series IIA 109" ̶P̶e̶t̶r̶o̶l̶ 300 Tdi - under restoration
    "Kaylee" 1953 Series I 80" - waiting patiently

  2. #112
    JDNSW's Avatar
    JDNSW is online now RoverLord Silver Subscriber
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    Re Threads. The Series 1 was built entirely using BSW and BSF (plus selected BA and BSP).

    Series 2 replaced the BSF with UNF - for new parts compared to Series 1. Through Series 2 and 2a, UNF continued to replace BSF. Right at the end of Series 2a production, wheel studs went metric.

    Series 3 continued to replace BSF with UNF, and started very slowly started to replace UNF with metric for new parts - the five bearing engine was entirely metric. But the last Series 3 still had some BSF!

    And many parts are interchangeable all the way from Series 1 to Series 3, and your 2a would be exceptional if it does not have quite a few assemblies that are from older or newer models.

    So check what threads and spanners you actually have when working on any part.
    John

    JDNSW
    1986 110 County 3.9 diesel
    1970 2a 109 2.25 petrol

  3. #113
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    Solid advice. I'm aware of several bits of my car which had obviously been replaced by a previous owner, but by the time I'm done I fear the only original parts will be the chassis and the pinion nut on the front diff... I have considered renaming Serenity, I think Theseus would fit nicely. For example, I dragged the front axle housing out of a paddock.

    The biggest issue I've had is I was buying parts without the right parts catalogue. The digital version I bought from Dave's shop had the 2 and really early 2A pendant type axles with 3/8 fasteners, but none of the 7/16 fasteners and non-pendant type ball joints. I've bought a hard copy of RTC9840CC published in 1987, and it includes all of the various part changes. Checking that manual is how I realised there might be an issue with the diff fasteners, I was looking up which nuts I was supposed to use from my, ahem, 'well organised' parts store and saw two alternatives listed in the manual.

    On the topic of identifying thread types, I've made up a table with various bolt sizes and thread pitches, it might be helpful to others. The cells highlighted yellow are dangerous as the TPI is shared between two thread families for a given diameter, so the difference is tooth angle (60 degrees for UN threads, 55 degrees for BS threads). It prints nicely at 260% on A4 paper (on my printer). It looks even better laminated and stuck to the wall of your shed (though I've failed at this point, it's mostly been magnetically attached to my whiteboard).

    Thread Pitch Chart.xlsx

    Cheers,
    Martin
    "Serenity" 1964 Series IIA 109" ̶P̶e̶t̶r̶o̶l̶ 300 Tdi - under restoration
    "Kaylee" 1953 Series I 80" - waiting patiently

  4. #114
    Join Date
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    Flipping the thrust washer over in the railko bush appears to have solved my increasing friction issue. It's gone from 13 lb to 14 lb overnight, a dramatic improvement over its previous 20-24 lb efforts, and more importantly it's still in spec.

    Today's progress has involved mowing the lawns, installing a frog pond, and installing new brake shoe adjusters onto the brake backing plates. I struggled to find good information about how they were supposed to go back together (I pulled these off something like 11 or 12 years ago and didn't take any photos), but this is my best guess. Please correct me if I'm wrong!







    Cheers,
    Martin
    "Serenity" 1964 Series IIA 109" ̶P̶e̶t̶r̶o̶l̶ 300 Tdi - under restoration
    "Kaylee" 1953 Series I 80" - waiting patiently

  5. #115
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    I used to be indecisive, now I'm not so sure.

    I had been planning to post photos of my finished front axle, all rebuilt and resplendent in its new paint job, but then I happened to it.

    The idea of upgrading brakes has been at the back (and front) of my mind since I decided to swap to a 300Tdi. I seriously investigated a disc conversion, but the only one which I could be certain would be legal in Australia, given wheel spacers are banned, was the kit by Forbyn Bros. It looks a million bucks and I'm sure it's fit for purpose, and I'm thrilled it lets you run Series wheels (I want Serenity to look absolutely stock until you open the bonnet or look underneath), but it's just too expensive for me to buy mid-restoration. As such, brakes ended up on the back burner. While looking at parts manuals while trying to figure out how to assemble brake adjusters on the backing plates in the previous post, I saw the width measurement of the shoes for the 6 cylinder brakes. An extra 3/4" of width seems nice, and one also wonders why Land Rover engineers thought it was necessary to upgrade the brakes when they put a slightly more powerful engine in...

    It was only a day or so later I saw Gromit advertising a set of 6 cylinder front brakes. So anyway, if anybody happens to be coming to Tassie and wants to bring a set of brakes down for me, let me know! (I do have other plans to get them collected).

    I have also warned my wife that me buying 6 cylinder brakes does not preclude me from buying discs in the future if a suitable set becomes available or I somehow end up with more money than sense. My long-suffering wife thankfully approves of cars stopping post-haste, so is happy with this arrangement.

    Anyway, here's what I have done.

    Stub axles and brake backing plates have been fitted. The bolt locking plates supplied in the swivel kit didn't fit (bolt holes didn't line up), but thankfully I didn't know they were in there and ordered some separately which did fit. They immediately tore as I did up the bolts. The good news is I ordered WAY too many(15 - they must have been cheap), so had spares to fix this damage (by applying moly grease to the face of the lock plate where the bolt sits on it) and still have enough for another axle.






    I then fitted up the oil seals (the things you can do when you're not measuring pre-load every time you walk into the shed!). One of the seals had a chunk out of the face which sits on the swivel housing and was slightly bent (probably from my 'wonderful' storage over the past 12 years), so I probably should just order a new one and replace it because it's bound to leak.


    Then came wheel bearings, and this is about as far as I got before I decided I was wasting my time doing more. I didn't have a dial gauge (which I have now borrowed from a friend) to set the end float, and I think I've forgotten to buy replacement nuts for the end of the prop shaft, so this is as far as I got.


    Here it stands (pun not intended), waiting for me to get my act together.


    There's no point in wasting time while I make up my mind, so it's on the the rear axle. That should be an easy job, I said to myself. Murphy apparently can read minds.

    So you probably don't recall in my first post in however many years, I posted this picture of a stub axle which looks to be in vaguely acceptable condition.


    At the time I took the photo, I did think to myself, "that's odd, I thought they looked worse than that. Well that's good news!". It turns out my memory was accurate, and they actually look like this:


    The good news is, like with my front axle, I also have a mystery rear axle from which I can harvest parts. So that will get a call up to provide stub axles. Hopefully they're in good shape (they are for imperial bearings same as the front, I know that because it's already donated M16x1.5 style wheel hubs to the cause).

    With that revelation out of the way, a wise friend has told me I shouldn't use the diff without first looking inside it. It turns out it's absolutely filthy, we think it's probably the additives in the gear oil separating out based on previous experience and the fact you could see a witness mark on the pan showing where the grime floated to the top of the oil (precluding water and metal contamination) and sat. The plan is to put some diesel or brake cleaner though it, seal it up and pretend nothing happened.

    (the red mark is where I wiped it with a rag, it was grey beforehand)


    In better news, the teeth look fresh, I'm most pleased with that.


    The bad news is I also decided to change the pinion seal and update the flange to a more modern Defender style in the process. With that, I needed to replace the collapsible spacer. It is not going well. More parts are on order, they should arrive tomorrow. I just don't have the leverage to crush the spacer, and I trashed the seal investigating the issue, plus there's evidence the overloading of the pinion nut was damaging the face of the new flange and washer, so I need a new nut and washer. Having now inspected the new after-market flange, I'm not impressed with the surface finish left by the machining process on the sealing surface, so I'll probably run the original flange again as at least that doesn't have a whole pile of ridges on it. A mudslinger would be nice, but it doesn't help if the seal pre-leaks. Now I'm thinking I'll use the original flange, I could skip all of my problems with the new crush tube and reuse the old one. Guess who didn't bother to mark the bolt and flange so he could reuse the original crush washer. It was this guy!

    Sigh.



    Cheers,
    Martin
    "Serenity" 1964 Series IIA 109" ̶P̶e̶t̶r̶o̶l̶ 300 Tdi - under restoration
    "Kaylee" 1953 Series I 80" - waiting patiently

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