Handbrake lining wear

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Originally Posted by wagoo

No , just some seriously crappy vehicle design issues.
On the tediously long 'To Do' list to properly sort out a series LandRover is a cable actuated handbrake or a transmission mounted handbrake lever, No other manufacturer in the world to my knowledge including LandRover since the Stage Ones.and first RangeRovers uses a lever/bellcrank/rod linkage mounted independantly of the transmission.
Bill.

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You are, I think, criticising design a bit anachronistically. At the time this system was designed, cable operation of any brakes was regarded as very suspect, as they invariably rusted solid in a very short time. I remember from my early days that it was rare for any car equipped with a cable operated handbrake to have it still working more than a month after the annual inspection. My sister ( seven years older than myself) is an example of someone who was trained by her mechanic husband to never use the handbake because it would stick on. And when I think of a Vauxhall a schoolfriend had with cable service brakes ......

I suspect they only became reliable when polymer coatings that worked were developed, about the mid sixties. With this background, a positive linkage was, in my view, a good design decision. Mounting the brake on the box may have made sense, but may have presented difficulties in catering for both left and right hand drive.

My experience in over fifty years of driving Series Landrovers, is that it is not a significant design fault.

John

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Originally Posted by JDNSW

You are, I think, criticising design a bit anachronistically.

a positive linkage was, in my view, a good design decision. Mounting the brake on the box may have made sense, but may have presented difficulties in catering for both left and right hand drive.

My experience in over fifty years of driving Series Landrovers, is that it is not a significant design fault.

John

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Can't see any issues with a standard S2 I have re fitting transmission mounted lever and linkage for either right or left hand drive.
Unfortunately series vehicles were chock full of relatively insignificant and some really significant design faults that when added together, produced a vehicle that was far below what it could have and should have been.
Bill.

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Originally Posted by wagoo

Can't see any issues with a standard S2 I have re fitting transmission mounted lever and linkage for either right or left hand drive.
Unfortunately series vehicles were chock full of relatively insignificant and some really significant design faults that when added together, produced a vehicle that was far below what it could have and should have been.
Bill.

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Again, I think you are using hindsight, not looking at the situation as it was at the time. While there are any number of bit that could have been designed better, there was, I would guess, always some very good reason why they were designed that way. Most often it was the result of the simple fact that Rover was only a very small company by the standards of any car company today, or most of their competitors in the period of Series production, and were always capital limited. Yet it was phenomenally successful for twenty years and quite successful for perhaps another ten. There was no successful competition until Leyland stultified progress by creaming off all the profits and not allowing significant design improvements or even increases in production capacity. Rover was unable to meet demand for twenty or more years until competition became successful enough to actually reduced demand.

To give a few examples that I know of - while power was increased substantially beyond the original design, it was not financially possible to design and tool up for new gearboxes and diffs to handle the additional power. The gearbox (I think a 1932 Rover design) was unable to be upgraded significantly until Series 3, and even then the need to retain the original dimensions to save other changes meant it was not entirely the hoped for result. Pretty much the same story for the diffs, also a prewar Rover design - changing these significantly would have meant a complete axle redesign, breaking compatibility with earlier models and complicating spare parts supply.

In all cases, using something already in production was much preferred to designing anew. The scarce capital available was used, for example, to produce the Range Rover, not to improve the Landrover that was already selling faster than they could build them.

You see a similar sort of story if you look at the history of Jeep, even though it was always a much larger company than Rover until the Leyland merger (of which, perhaps, the less said the better!) even when it was the original Willys. For example, Willys' IOE engine was actually a conversion of the side valve engine, not a completely new design as was Rover's a decade earlier. (Thus using most of the same tooling).

John

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Originally Posted by JDNSW

Again, I think you are using hindsight, not looking at the situation as it was at the time.

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Also, customer resistance to change was very large thru into the 60's. Please don't measure reliability & "roadability" by today's standard. I am just old enough to remember what are now major roads being at times "4WD only". The 80's S1 & s2's did what they had to do at the time, & many, many country ppl remember them with great respect.

Back to "The original problem", how about worn or slack transfer case bearings, this results in the "top" shoe wearing more than the bottom one.

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Originally Posted by fc110

Back to "The original problem", how about worn or slack transfer case bearings, this results in the "top" shoe wearing more than the bottom one.

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The handbrake is a leading and trailing shoe design, meaning the top shoe does most of the work, except when the brake is used to prevent the vehicle from rolling backwards.Greater wear on the leading shoe therefore is to be expected, particularly if overadjusted.
Bill

The operating mechanism (expander) 'floats' on the backplate held in place by the packing piece, locking plate & retaining clip. There is a lot of wear in the grooves that the packing piece etc. fit into and the mechansim has been twisting judging by the wear pattern I can see. Even the flat surface that bears against the backplate is worn down.

Took one off my Series 3 parts car and almost the same wear pattern to the expander.

Looks like the expander was loose on the backplate so it drops (due to gravity) letting one shoe constantly rub and wear the lining away.

I'll have to track down a better condition expander.....


Colin

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Originally Posted by gromit

The operating mechanism (expander) 'floats' on the backplate held in place by the packing piece, locking plate & retaining clip. There is a lot of wear in the grooves that the packing piece etc. fit into and the mechansim has been twisting judging by the wear pattern I can see. Even the flat surface that bears against the backplate is worn down.

Took one off my Series 3 parts car and almost the same wear pattern to the expander.

Looks like the expander was loose on the backplate so it drops (due to gravity) letting one shoe constantly rub and wear the lining away. Colin

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Hi Colin

I just put back together a hand brake into a late 2A, what a mess that rover is / was in !!
I ordered and received from DLS, UK;

One pair of new hand brake shoes for 2A, then I found that the gearbox is from a series one, Oh Joy! back to my scrap bin and found the remains of a series 2 transfer and hand brake, phew!!!

Couple of Oil seals for the output shaft, as I am now using the speedo drive housing from the scrap S2 stuff, used one of the oil seals, it did its job, but would have fit the series 1 anyway.

Hand brake expander, is still in its box, as I was able to tidy up the expander, used it with its backing plate from the scrap bin parts, the expander was seized and took a while to free all the bits up. Doing this I changed around the internal parts, so that the reversed housing gave the expander another go at life.

The wear in the series 1, speedo drive housing was enough to warrant changing to the 2A part, that required setting up the shims again between the back of the transfer box and the speedo housing.
Still a little bit tight after fitting another 10 thou of shims in, but I hope it will do.

All the threads on the studs and bolts of that part of the job, were given the wire wheel treatment and lots of spray from pressure pack cans to clean and lubricate the nuts so they run nicely on the threads, ( more time grrr ).

That 2A has; a series three front clip forward of the 2A 6 cylinder firewall, seat box from a S2 SWB, S1 gearbox and transfer ( high low lever is too close to the transmission tunnel and the floor has been hacked to make it fit ), truck cab and back is from a military land rover ( white roof and window panel, army green ), cab rear bottom panel was painted red (original colour).
Now this Land Rover has a 2A hand brake, the tray was off a old Toyota FJ45 and the rear diff is a Salisbury with its propshaft from a S3. Oh yeah the front hubs are S2 and the back ones are of course are S3 !!! why does that matter you may ask? try changing the wheels around, you will soon realise while the wheels fit, the wheel socket doesn't. :censored:

Sorry I went on a bit in this posting, but it was a pleasure to mow the lawns after that work yesterday. :(

Fitted it back together today.

I got hold of an as-new expander body and re-assembled it with my internals. When fitting it to the backplate I had to change the 'packer' for a thicker one and made sure there was some friction between the expander and the backplate to make sure it doesn't drop. I think even the boot helps add some resistance to movement if it rubs on the backplate.

Got it back together and spotted the main cause of the problem.....the return spring tab had been fitted to the wrong operating arm (the one from the expander) so it was permanently pulling the expander downwards. Moved this to the bottom of the arm from the handbrake lever, re-fitted the spring and after adjusting everything is OK. No drag and operates after 'three clicks'.
I spotted a 'home made' handbrake return spring on the handbrake lever so someone in the past must have realised there was a problem and added another spring. Problem is the downward pull on the expander left the trailing shoe always in contact with the drum.

Arthur, how much are handbrake shoes from the UK ? I'm paying $18 new and $15 for re-lined for the Series 2/3 type from a Clutch & Brake place near where I work....

I'll have to find someone who can aluminium weld the old expander body. It could be built up, filed back to the correct slot width and kept as a spare.


Colin

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Originally Posted by gromit

how much are handbrake shoes from the UK ? I'm paying $18 new and $15 for re-lined for the Series 2/3 type from a Clutch & Brake place near where I work....

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Hi Colin

Check this receipt out.

Description: LAND ROVER SERIES 2/3 TRANSMISSION HAND BRAKE SHOE SET
Qty: 1
Unit Price: 9.14 GBP
Total: 9.14 GBP

Description: LAND ROVER SERIES 2/2A/3 HANDBRAKE EXPANDER UNIT
Qty: 1
Unit Price: 13.50 GBP
Total: 13.50 GBP

Description: LAND ROVER SERIES 2/3 HANDBRAKE - REAR OUTPUT OIL SEAL
Qty: 2
Unit Price: 2.55 GBP
Total: 5.10 GBP

Subtotal: 27.74 GBP
Shipping and handling: 9.95 GBP

Total: 37.69 GBP
Payment: 37.69 GBP

Payment sent to: SALES*******UK
From amount: $59.40 AUD
To amount: £37.69 GBP
Exchange rate: 1 Australian Dollar = 0.634511 British Pounds

I find with some prices that I get quotes over the phone for, I am still better off buying from overseas, as compared to running down into Hobart which takes time and fuel. Were as the overseas stuff usually takes about four days and is delivered to my door .
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Arthur,

Probably not worth trying to get the handbrake expander built up with weld at those prices ......
Who was the supplier ?


Colin