Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 13

Thread: Seeking clarification on Series 2, 109 rear brake set up

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Aug 2020
    Location
    Blackwood
    Posts
    19
    Total Downloaded
    0

    Seeking clarification on Series 2, 109 rear brake set up

    Hello again.
    Today I am trouble-shooting a limp brake pedal and have identified the problem as adjustment in the rear brakes (thanks John for this informative post from some years ago: Urgent help needed bleeding series 3 brakes.).
    I am fully expecting that the previous owner has not used the correct parts and am seeking clarification.
    For starters, the wheel cylinders don't come up in a Google search - Protex AR-80 and AR-81.

    Protext AR-81.jpg

    Protex has its own recommendations for my vehicle (although I am confused why they have listed options for both 31.75mm and 25.40mm?).

    Next are the shoes. The workshop manual diagram shows far more lining on the shoes. These shoes don't have much at all. And, according to this website - Land Rover FAQ - 109 rear brakes - they are on the wrong way around – with the leading shoe supposed to have a larger gap between the tapered top and the start of the lining.

    Linings on shoes.jpg

    According to this website, if that are on the wrong way, they won't adjust.

    Trailing shoe.jpg

    The adjustment is strange insofar as turning the screw in an out will adjust out and then in again (rather than a steady rate of adjustment).

    Adjuster.jpg

    And then there are the drums themselves - deeply scored. Can I have them machined? Or do I need new ones?

    Drum.jpg

    Advice on all these issues would be appreciate before I go any further.
    What can I salvage, what new bits do I need?
    Thanks.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Narre Warren South
    Posts
    6,314
    Total Downloaded
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Shane Scanlan View Post
    Hello again.
    Today I am trouble-shooting a limp brake pedal and have identified the problem as adjustment in the rear brakes (thanks John for this informative post from some years ago: Urgent help needed bleeding series 3 brakes.).
    I am fully expecting that the previous owner has not used the correct parts and am seeking clarification.
    For starters, the wheel cylinders don't come up in a Google search - Protex AR-80 and AR-81.

    Protext AR-81.jpg

    This looks like very early Series II which used a Rover car slave cylinder, the cutout is for the handbrake mechanism on the Rover.

    Protex has its own recommendations for my vehicle (although I am confused why they have listed options for both 31.75mm and 25.40mm?).

    Next are the shoes. The workshop manual diagram shows far more lining on the shoes. These shoes don't have much at all. And, according to this website - Land Rover FAQ - 109 rear brakes - they are on the wrong way around – with the leading shoe supposed to have a larger gap between the tapered top and the start of the lining.
    This is important because the pins in the shoes for the adjusters used on the later models are in different positions for leading & training shoes. Not so relevant because your adjuster is at the end of the shoes.

    Linings on shoes.jpg

    According to this website, if that are on the wrong way, they won't adjust.

    Trailing shoe.jpg

    The adjustment is strange insofar as turning the screw in an out will adjust out and then in again (rather than a steady rate of adjustment).
    The later Series II's use individual adjusters for each shoe. It's not a steady rate of adjustment as there are a series of flats on the 'cam', as you turn it moves the shoes out, then back a bit as it settles on a flat.


    Adjuster.jpg

    And then there are the drums themselves - deeply scored. Can I have them machined? Or do I need new ones?
    Depends if they have been machined before, there is a maximum diameter they can be machined out to.

    Drum.jpg

    Advice on all these issues would be appreciate before I go any further.
    What can I salvage, what new bits do I need?
    Thanks.
    I had an early Series II LWB with the same brake setup. Fortunately I managed to re-seal my slave cylinders as they were very difficult to locate new.

    Best of luck.


    Colin
    '56 Series 1 with homemade welder
    '65 Series IIa Dormobile
    '70 SIIa GS
    '76 SIII 88" (Isuzu C240)
    '81 SIII FFR
    '95 Defender Tanami
    '58 Series II (sold)
    Motorcycles :-
    Vincent Rapide, Panther M100, Norton BIG4, Electra & Navigator, Matchless G80C

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Aug 2020
    Location
    Blackwood
    Posts
    19
    Total Downloaded
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by gromit View Post
    I had an early Series II LWB with the same brake setup. Fortunately I managed to re-seal my slave cylinders as they were very difficult to locate new.

    Best of luck.


    Colin
    Thanks Colin
    But I am unclear on your advice.
    I think you're saying the wheel cylinders look like the right ones? They are quite new, so I don't know where the previous owner sourced them from.
    I didn't get your views on why Protex has two different sized cylinders for a 1960 109.
    And I don't know whether you are saying the shoes are OK or should be replaced? Perhaps they are hard to find? Are compromises need to be made because of this? They certainly look nothing like the ones in the manual (attached).

    Original shoes diagram.jpg

    I poorly described the adjuster behaviour. Regardless of whether or not I am loosening or tightening, they continuously go through a full range of adjustment – open/closed/open/closed, etc. Is that right?
    I understand the drum advice. I'm going to take them in for machining.
    Thanks

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Narre Warren South
    Posts
    6,314
    Total Downloaded
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Shane Scanlan View Post
    Thanks Colin
    But I am unclear on your advice.
    I think you're saying the wheel cylinders look like the right ones? They are quite new, so I don't know where the previous owner sourced them from.
    I didn't get your views on why Protex has two different sized cylinders for a 1960 109.
    Maybe they moved away from the Rover car slave cylinders during 1960 ? I'd have to check part numbers.

    And I don't know whether you are saying the shoes are OK or should be replaced? Perhaps they are hard to find? Are compromises need to be made because of this? They certainly look nothing like the ones in the manual (attached).

    The shoes look like the later ones although I'm not sure if there are any differences apart from the pins for the individual adjusters on the later ones. Because of the very different adjuster they may be unique to the early LWB's ? The short linings tell me they are probably aftermarket (made in India).
    I'd have to check part numbers.


    Original shoes diagram.jpg

    I poorly described the adjuster behaviour. Regardless of whether or not I am loosening or tightening, they continuously go through a full range of adjustment – open/closed/open/closed, etc. Is that right?
    Doesn't sound right but without one in front of me..... Usually that type of brake adjuster has a tapered end (often with a series of flats on) and you screw it in so it adjusts in steps. As you screw in it opens then closes a bit but step by step it moves the shoes apart as you screw it in

    I understand the drum advice. I'm going to take them in for machining.
    Thanks
    If I remember I'll look at the parts manual when I get home.


    Colin
    '56 Series 1 with homemade welder
    '65 Series IIa Dormobile
    '70 SIIa GS
    '76 SIII 88" (Isuzu C240)
    '81 SIII FFR
    '95 Defender Tanami
    '58 Series II (sold)
    Motorcycles :-
    Vincent Rapide, Panther M100, Norton BIG4, Electra & Navigator, Matchless G80C

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Narre Warren South
    Posts
    6,314
    Total Downloaded
    0
    Same part number for the brake shoes Series II & IIa (LR 532044).
    In the parts manual the early ones have the pins for the individual adjusters even though there is a single adjuster for the pair.

    The adjuster will take multiple turns to adjust the shoes, as I remembered.The shoes will move in & out as you rotate but gradually they should move apart (as long as the mechanism is assembled correctly).

    Colin
    '56 Series 1 with homemade welder
    '65 Series IIa Dormobile
    '70 SIIa GS
    '76 SIII 88" (Isuzu C240)
    '81 SIII FFR
    '95 Defender Tanami
    '58 Series II (sold)
    Motorcycles :-
    Vincent Rapide, Panther M100, Norton BIG4, Electra & Navigator, Matchless G80C

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Location
    South Australia
    Posts
    413
    Total Downloaded
    0
    I’ve been having difficulty with adjusters on my 109.

    The rear shoe is fine, but the leading shoe seems to ride off the adjuster and as you say, just goes around and around and never hits a stop.

    I’ve tried replacing the adjusters (crap kit from britpart) which helped a little.

    Still no nearer a solution I’m confident in.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Narre Warren South
    Posts
    6,314
    Total Downloaded
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Cadas View Post
    I’ve been having difficulty with adjusters on my 109.

    The rear shoe is fine, but the leading shoe seems to ride off the adjuster and as you say, just goes around and around and never hits a stop.

    I’ve tried replacing the adjusters (crap kit from britpart) which helped a little.

    Still no nearer a solution I’m confident in.
    I guess yours are the later individual adjusters rather than the single one as on on Shane's Series II ?
    Does the shoe ride off the adjuster with the drum fitted ? If you try without the drum there is every chance it might ride off.

    The pins for the adjusters should be positioned differently in the leading & trailing shoes. But saying that I have just fitted a set where the pins are in exactly the same position and the linings are fitted the same on each shoe and the adjusters work fine, but that may not be the case when the linings wear.

    The aftermarket adjuster kits seem to be made of cheese, better to stick with the originals even if you have to re-grind the notches in the cams.

    Colin
    '56 Series 1 with homemade welder
    '65 Series IIa Dormobile
    '70 SIIa GS
    '76 SIII 88" (Isuzu C240)
    '81 SIII FFR
    '95 Defender Tanami
    '58 Series II (sold)
    Motorcycles :-
    Vincent Rapide, Panther M100, Norton BIG4, Electra & Navigator, Matchless G80C

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    S.E.Qld
    Posts
    1,334
    Total Downloaded
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Cadas View Post
    I’ve been having difficulty with adjusters on my 109. The rear shoe is fine, but the leading shoe seems to ride off the adjuster and as you say, just goes around and around and never hits a stop. I’ve tried replacing the adjusters (crap kit from britpart) which helped a little. Still no nearer a solution I’m confident in.
    Are the correct adjusters fitted ? They come in two different sizes .
    .W.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Location
    South Australia
    Posts
    413
    Total Downloaded
    0
    Yes, used the correct snail. And yes they do ride off with the drum on on the leading shoe only.

    I’ve a box full of back plates and note that there are multiple configurations off adjuster with springs inside/outside, washer thickness, etc. of when the same shoe is meant to fit then all.

    I think the pins are two short in the leading shoe. I’ve improved it by modifying the adjuster with other washers to move the snail away from the back plates.

    I’m planning on having the other back plates blasted and we’ll try swapping different ones out to see if there is a difference.

  10. #10
    JDNSW's Avatar
    JDNSW is offline RoverLord Silver Subscriber
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Central West NSW
    Posts
    28,804
    Total Downloaded
    0
    First thing I would check is the drum diameter. If the drum has been machined too far, you run out of adjustment.
    John

    JDNSW
    1986 110 County 3.9 diesel
    1970 2a 109 2.25 petrol

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Search AULRO.com ONLY!
Search All the Web!