Series 3 Front Axle Query.........

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Originally Posted by garrycol

Given Landrover tilting the RRC front diff up I wonder why they did not do the same with the 101 front diff - may have got rid of the built in vibrations they have.

Garry

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The reasons for not doing so are either,
A- Just like God, LandRover so called engineers work in mysterious ways.
B-They are/were simply incompetent amatuers.
Take your pick.
Bill.

Unless I am mistaken both the Rangerover and Stage 1, but not the 90/110/Defender, have a CV (double cross and bearing) joint at the TC end of the front prop shaft. In theory this is required if the diff is tilted up, as the U-joints at each end are not at the same angle. (The 90/110/Defender get away with it, sort of, by setting the two joints out of phase)

Series and 101 have the pinion and TC shaft parallel, and hence the angles are equal, so that there is no vibration. I suspect that in the 101 the shafts are not actually exactly parallel, and vibration becomes obtrusive because of the relatively large angle compared to the Series ones.

In my view, tilting the diff up on the 101 would not help, although tilting it up and fitting a CV joint would. Note that the reason for the tilt on the constant four wheel drive Landrovers is to allow for the track rod, and the CV joint was necessary because of that. The 110 and its successors have a rather crude workaround simply because CV joints are expensive, and vibration is of secondary importance in utility vehicles.

John

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Originally Posted by wagoo

You may not want to, but if your old front end had 24 spline free wheel hubs, there is nothing preventing you from fitting those onto the stage one axle.
Experience with fitting RangeRover front ends to series vehicle hasn't shown up any vibration issues despite the RR diff pinion being tilted up 12 degrees when compared to the original series axle.The Stage one pinion is also tilted up and vibrations may not be an issue either, but if they are you might want to fit those FWHs. Nothing to prevent you from fitting the Stage One components to your old front axle housing either.
Bill.

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Everything on this Stage One V8 axle seems identical to the original axle, including the rear pinion.It doesn't tilt up and looks the same.I was told that the original propshaft wouldn't work on this axle but it's bolted up perfectly too :confused: This new axle came with a double cardan propshaft but it looks that I might not need it.

I wonder if this axle has stage one components fitted into in an original housing ??

Here's two pics of the axle

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Originally Posted by JDNSW

Unless I am mistaken both the Rangerover and Stage 1, but not the 90/110/Defender, have a CV (double cross and bearing) joint at the TC end of the front prop shaft. In theory this is required if the diff is tilted up, as the U-joints at each end are not at the same angle. (The 90/110/Defender get away with it, sort of, by setting the two joints out of phase)

Series and 101 have the pinion and TC shaft parallel, and hence the angles are equal, so that there is no vibration. I suspect that in the 101 the shafts are not actually exactly parallel, and vibration becomes obtrusive because of the relatively large angle compared to the Series ones.

In my view, tilting the diff up on the 101 would not help, although tilting it up and fitting a CV joint would. Note that the reason for the tilt on the constant four wheel drive Landrovers is to allow for the track rod, and the CV joint was necessary because of that. The 110 and its successors have a rather crude workaround simply because CV joints are expensive, and vibration is of secondary importance in utility vehicles.

John

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RangeRover classic front shafts don't have double Cardan joints as standard, but Stage ones did. Stage one DCs had a relatively short service life and many were replaced with a conventional propshaft with a single U joint at each end with little adverse effect on vibrations except for a few Isuzu powered examples.When I was in the trade I worked out by experimentation that 17 degrees was the correct angle to tilt the 101 front diff to give equal and parralell U joint angles with significantly reduced u joint angles.Equal/ parralell joint angles cancel vibrations just as equal/ opposite(Standard 101/ series arrangement) angles do. We modified 3 101s which cured their vibration issues.
I'm guessing that the RangeRover front ends I have fitted to series vehicles didn't cause vibrations at road speeds because the vehicles have selective 4x2/4x4 drive, and at roads speeds the propshaft is not loaded .Possibly on fast dirt roads where 4wd may be desirable,vibrations may appear but not at the 60kmh speed I drove these vehicles at during testing on dirt roads.
Bill.

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Originally Posted by jerryd

Everything on this Stage One V8 axle seems identical to the original axle, including the rear pinion.It doesn't tilt up and looks the same.I was told that the original propshaft wouldn't work on this axle but it's bolted up perfectly too :confused: This new axle came with a double cardan propshaft but it looks that I might not need it.

I wonder if this axle has stage one components fitted into in an original housing ??

Here's two pics of the axle

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Without going too far into it, the easist way of telling if the axle has been fitted with stage one components is to remove one or both of the drive flange tin caps.If you see a circlip on the end of the stubshaft it is Stage One. If you see a round or hex castle nut and split pin, I'm afraid the front axle shafts are just series 3 u joint type.If that is the case you should check the diff to make sure it is a 3.54 ratio and not 4.7. Also Stage one wheel bearings are equal size wheras series inner wheel bearings are larger than the outers.
Bill.

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Originally Posted by wagoo

RangeRover classic front shafts don't have double Cardan joints as standard, but Stage ones did. Stage one DCs had a relatively short service life and many were replaced with a conventional propshaft with a single U joint at each end with little adverse effect on vibrations except for a few Isuzu powered examples.When I was in the trade I worked out by experimentation that 17 degrees was the correct angle to tilt the 101 front diff to give equal and parralell U joint angles with significantly reduced u joint angles.Equal/ parralell joints cancel vibrations just as equal opposite(Standard 101/ series arrangement) angle do. We modified 3 101s which cured the vibration issues.
I'm guessing that the RangeRover front ends I have fitted to series vehicles didn't cause vibrations at road speeds because the vehicles have selective 4x2/4x4 drive and at roads speeds the propshaft is not loaded .Possibly on fast dirt roads where 4wd may be desirable,vibrations may appear but not at the 60kmh speed I drove these vehicles at during testing on dirt roads.
Bill.

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FWIW I have a Stage 1 front end in my IIA with a standard IIA front proshaft. No FWH, and No vibrations.

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Originally Posted by isuzurover

FWIW I have a Stage 1 front end in my IIA with a standard IIA front proshaft. No FWH, and No vibrations.

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Hopefully mine will be the same :) I'll check out the innards when I overhaul the brakes, as I want to remove the brake back plates and paint them.

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Originally Posted by jerryd

Hopefully mine will be the same :) I'll check out the innards when I overhaul the brakes, as I want to remove the brake back plates and paint them.

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I forgot to add that the pinion on my axle is angled higher - as reported here. If yours doesn't then the centre casing (at least) is probably not stage 1.

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Originally Posted by isuzurover

I forgot to add that the pinion on my axle is angled higher - as reported here. If yours doesn't then the centre casing (at least) is probably not stage 1.

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I will try and find out from the previous owner if he knows anything of it's history, as it definately looks the same angle as the original axle where the prop shaft connects.