When Rotary Wing Aircraft went from RAAF to Army

[VladTepes]

From another not-very-related thread...

The transfer of Rotary wing to Army was one of the dumbest things done in this country.

Do tell.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Next thing they will be saying that the removal of all fast-jets from the RAN was the worst thing for this country! (never mind that we didn't have an aircraft carrier!)

[mowog]

I was in 35 Sqn at the time of the Rotary Wing assets transfer to Army. I was in Townsville when the disbanded 9 Sqn became 5 Aviation Reg.

At the time Army only had very basic aircraft and absolutely no experience in operating a fleet of complex aircraft like the Black Hawk. Army miss-management of the Black Hawk fleet caused problems in maintenance. Aircraft were being flown with no regard to a maintenance plan. This caused a back log of unserviceable aircraft that were grounded firstly because there were not enough people to service them and secondly the spares supply was low because of the failure to fly to a maintenance plan.

Aircraft due for maintenance were canabalised for components with hours so that these could be fitted to aircraft going out the other door. This created another problem where aircraft with short hour components ended up at the back of the maintenance Que.

Now while all this was going on and man power was in short supply Army was still being Army and making all the maintainers do Army stuff. You know important things like parades and running and playing on jungle gyms.

The direct result of all this was low aircraft availability. With low aircraft availability comes reduced training for Aircrew. With reduced aircrew training you get accidents.

You can draw a direct line from this fleet mismanagement to the 1996 Black Hawk crash in High Range.

People died because Army had no idea how to manage a fleet of complex aircraft.

[mowog]

From another not-very-related thread...



Do tell.

Note you started the tangent not me.

[VladTepes]

Note you started the tangent not me.

"Did not - You started it - You invaded Poland !" - Basil Fawlty.

[mowog]

Sorry minor edit on my response serviceable changed to unserviceable.

[mowog]

Next thing they will be saying that the removal of all fast-jets from the RAN was the worst thing for this country! (never mind that we didn't have an aricraft carrier!

Fast jets being removed from RAN had a direct effect on my career. We got a lot of the RAN guys transfer to RAAF (note: not many went to Army). This had long term effects on promotions because suddenly a lot of mustering's were well over their numbers.

Whilst not the worst thing to happen the silly thing is we leased back those Skyhawks from NZ to do the fleet support role they were scrapped from doing.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Fast jets being removed from RAN had a direct effect on my career. We got a lot of the RAN guys transfer to RAAF (note: not many went to Army). This had long term effects on promotions because suddenly a lot of mustering's were well over their numbers.

Whilst not the worst thing to happen the silly thing is we leased back those Skyhawks from NZ to do the fleet support role they were scrapped from doing.

It had a significant affect on a lot of people not just in the career structure and promotion in RAAF.

Jet jockies who liked the technical challenge of landing on a moving runway with a sudden stop for one. Many RAN pilots had to migrate to other countries to continue naval jet aviation.

Then there was the effect on the town of Nowra. The jets could only be based at HMAS Albatross when not at sea, this meant that jet aviators and ground crew purchased houses in the town of Nowra because their future careers were to be based there. With the stroke of a pen the prices of houses in the town plummeted, not a happy time for people like me who was selling a house in Nowra at the same time. With hundreds of RAN staff leaving the town all the service businesses that supported those staff had a little less income and many laid off staff. etc etc. I could go on, but what I'm actually saying is that transferring a few choppers to Army and a few sailors to RAAF was hardly the worst thing for the country. There were far more idiotic things done, transferring the CSIRO technology for industrial robots to Japan could be one, solar cell technology from UNSW to China another. There are many more.

I will accept that the transfer of the rotary wing aircraft to Army may not have been well planned and executed, but lets face it, what to Blackhawk choppers do? They transfer soldiers, to do Army things and as such they are no different from an Army truck or an Army tank.

IMHO making sure that Army aviation ground crew are fit and can shoot to Army standards, IS IMPORTANT, when Army aircraft are deployed they will likely deployed to relatively forward areas where they may need the skills of fighting, unlike the RAAF who will sleep under clean sheets, in dry, stationary accommodation miles back from the pointy end of the fighting, unlike either RAN or Army.

Diana

[mowog]

I will accept that the transfer of the rotary wing aircraft to Army may not have been well planned and executed, but lets face it, what to Blackhawk choppers do? They transfer soldiers, to do Army things and as such they are no different from an Army truck or an Army tank.

Diana

For a moment the RAN fast jet thing was just all about me. I accept all those other issues it caused as well.

Yes the very problem with the Army was they thought in Truck/Tank Terms when trying to operate a complex aircraft fleet.

By your logic of moving Army Assets around then the C130's and C17's should also be transferred to Army as well.

When I was at 35 sqn 90% of our work was supporting Army. There was complaint that they were not getting the level of tasking required but that was because RAAF managed and maintained a safe fleet. The lesson is clear when Army got the assets in the early days they got a high level of tasking but as the fleet was mis-managed the available aircraft was drastically reduced.

I have been out of the RAAF for long time now so I have no idea if Army has now improved their game in the management of aircraft.

[mowog]

IMHO making sure that Army aviation ground crew are fit and can shoot to Army standards, IS IMPORTANT, when Army aircraft are deployed they will likely deployed to relatively forward areas where they may need the skills of fighting, unlike the RAAF who will sleep under clean sheets, in dry, stationary accommodation miles back from the pointy end of the fighting, unlike either RAN or Army.

Diana

I agree with you here... It is important... But...

The safety of the people you put into the air is paramount and Army forgot this simple fact with the Grunt first attitude.

Your last assumption I take exception to. I was part of the Operational Deployment Force as a member of 35 Sqn. 35 Sqn spent a lot of time in the bush in support of Army. We were able to perform this role with out loosing site of the importance of aviation safety. On average we spent more time in the bush than the average grunt. This was because there were lots of grunts and only 1 35 Sqn.

The only time I spent in Hotels was when I moving for postings.

I was in Townsville when 5 AV were ordered to stop doing doing grunt stuff until they improved fleet serviceability.