Busted Dyneema Rope on Tigerz11 Winch

[Gaudough]

Not specifically a D2 topic.

I have just this week fitted an ARB Deluxe Bullbar and Tigerz11 12,000lb winch with rope (not wire cable).

I have had a test of the winch in the backyard and have subsequently broken the rope. I am not a winching expert hence why I set up to test it out in the safety of the backyard but have read a lot about winching and understand the issues.

I attempted to pull a small palm tree (90mm dia) out of the ground as a test (rather than use the chainsaw). The rope as it was coming off the drum when pulling it out had a slightly flattened section to it so I assumed it had been tensioned onto the drum.

However I got to the point of having 1 full layer plus two turns left on the drum as the Disco started to get pulled up the yard with all 4 wheels locked and the palm tree bending but not coming out of the ground. I pretty much stalled the winch so I moved the attachment point up the palm tree and recommenced.
More bend on the palm tree then the winch kept going the tree stopped bending and the Disco stopped coming forward. A quick check shows the rope broken 5mm from the attachment lug on the drum and maybe 3 turns of the rope are slightly melted on the side that was against the drum.

Now a whole layer of rope plus a few turns on the second should be sufficient to stop the rope slipping. Remember I had already put a lot of load on it in the the first test.

And.... it seems the little screw that holds the lug into the winch drum is stronger than the rope.

What do I do, can I trust this rope. I will have to remove the slightly marked section of rope, say 3m, and get a new lug crimped on.

This rope is supposed to be about 8.5t or 17,000lbs breaking strain and I broke it with a 12000lb winch.

I will be contacting the company I got the winch from tomorrow to see what they say.

Anyone had any experience with this.

Regards Gordo

[Casper]

I have seen similar before with plasma rope and from that experience have 2 spools of rope on the drum as a minimum as the rope is not like cable which bites in to the drum, it can only tighten down on itself.

The damaged sections will definitely have to go as it can no longer be trusted to have the same breaking strain.

It is not necessarily a faulty rope or the crimped lug not being up to scratch but more than likely the torque which was on the lug was too much due to the rope not gripping on the drum.

On my last winch I used with plasma we coloured the last 2 wraps around the drum red and hung a small nylon flag at the start of the red just in case we couldn't see the colour to eliminate the chance of running the rope off the spool.

I have to say though, that palm tree really doesn't want to come out, but my suggestion is to get the rope as high into the tree as is possible, I have seen 6' wide gum tree's pulled down with a Tirfor winch like that so a 12,000lb electric winch shouldn't have a problem.

Cheers Casper

[Blknight.aus]

not so... (edit reply to gaugough not casper,)

when you've started winching if the bottom layer was "loose" when the top layer pulls into it the "loose" bottom layer allows the drum to rotate under the layer thats under tension.

when the connection starts to pull on the rope it tightens up the bottom layer abit, if you're lucky it pulls enough in to start the winching process if not it pulls up some turns and then pulls the eyelet off. If this happens you wind up with the drum turning inside the slightly tighter windings and it burns the rope.

theres a few fixes.

The easiest is to unwind the rope all the way and neatly layer it back on EVERY time you winch with the rope. Not much fun But it guarantees that you will get a long life on the rope.

I dont usually attache the plasma ropes with an eyelet instead I tie them on with a round turn, 2 half hitches, a locking half hitch which I carefully cinch up and the apply a short western whip to the end of the half hitch and then again on the free end to keep it neat.. a bit harder to do and it can develop the same problem if the knot works loose or you loose tension on the rope during the unwind and the winch over runs.

It also helps to paint the drum with some rubber paint, liquid electrical tape OR grip tape.

[Tank]

It never ceases to amaze me why people buy rope/cable based on their breaking point and then work it to that limit and then whinge when it breaks. The Safe Working Load (SWL or Working Load Limit, WLL) of an 8.5T rope is only 1.7T. If you go to buy a recovery product that one day your life may depend on for Christ sake take some time and research the product. If a product, like a winch rope, does NOT have a SWL or WLL stamped on or tagged Don't buy it, if the seller doesn't know the SWL walk out and go to someone that does, like a Rigger supply shop.
Now a winch rated at 12,000lb should have a cable or rope with a SWL of 12,000lbs. but it won't because the cable will not physically fit onto the winch drum (because it's too thick), so a 12000lb winch should have a cable with a SWL or WLL of 2400lbs. which is usually too small for the job so the seller of the winch advertises the breaking strain (Guaranteed Breaking Strain GBS), the seller doesn't give a **** if you break the cable and maybe injure or kill some poor innocent bystander, he just want's the goods out the door.
SWL and WLL is based on a Safety Factor (SF) which is around 5 for a winch cable (10 for a lift that carries people) so you divide the known and tested GBS by the SF appropriate for the use and you come up with the SWL or WLL. Because from the first use (and abuse) the cable/rope detiorates and gets worse with age, the SF gives you a margin of safe use, if you go over that limit then let's hope that the only person injured is the idiot doing it. If anyone intends using a winch, please go and get "A Guide for Riggers" from the Library or see if you can download it, Regards Frank.

[Gaudough]

It never ceases to amaze me why people buy rope/cable based on their breaking point and then work it to that limit and then whinge when it breaks. The Safe Working Load (SWL or Working Load Limit, WLL) of an 8.5T rope is only 1.7T. If you go to buy a recovery product that one day your life may depend on for Christ sake take some time and research the product. If a product, like a winch rope, does NOT have a SWL or WLL stamped on or tagged Don't buy it, if the seller doesn't know the SWL walk out and go to someone that does, like a Rigger supply shop.
Now a winch rated at 12,000lb should have a cable or rope with a SWL of 12,000lbs. but it won't because the cable will not physically fit onto the winch drum (because it's too thick), so a 12000lb winch should have a cable with a SWL or WLL of 2400lbs. which is usually too small for the job so the seller of the winch advertises the breaking strain (Guaranteed Breaking Strain GBS), the seller doesn't give a **** if you break the cable and maybe injure or kill some poor innocent bystander, he just want's the goods out the door.
SWL and WLL is based on a Safety Factor (SF) which is around 5 for a winch cable (10 for a lift that carries people) so you divide the known and tested GBS by the SF appropriate for the use and you come up with the SWL or WLL. Because from the first use (and abuse) the cable/rope detiorates and gets worse with age, the SF gives you a margin of safe use, if you go over that limit then let's hope that the only person injured is the idiot doing it. If anyone intends using a winch, please go and get "A Guide for Riggers" from the Library or see if you can download it, Regards Frank.

Thats an informative answer Frank, Thanks.

Now it is starting to make sense why the steel winch cables snap when I would have thought they would only break due to abuse etc.

Gordo

[101RRS]

Frank - I appreciate your experience in rigging but right or wrong the same rules to not apply with 4wd recovery gear, the rating is usually the minimum failure rating so a 12,000LB cable may fail at 12,000LB - if you put a cable of 12,000LB SWL on a vehicle winch it would never fit. Likewise the winch itself is rated at 12,000LB - not SWL but the minimum failure load. So following rigging rules we actually need winches about 3 times bigger than we currently use.

I actually think that the 17,000LB rope used is a good match to the 12,000LB winch - irrespective of swls or min breaking points etc the rope in theory is stronger than the winch so with correct use should have been OK.

Garry

[Blknight.aus]

theres a reason why I have a 5t tirfor and always use a snatch block....

my 5t Tirfor IS 5t pull. (or 2.3t vertical lift) for the bits that are tirfor what it says on the lid IS the safe working limit not the WLL or GBS.

sure my tifors not as easy as a winch but Its never been stopped yet 10T of pull on most 4x4's is enough to start seperating vehicle parts (or get it out of the hole)

theres a whole medly of reasons to use a snatch block whenever you winch my favorite is that it puts less strain on the expensive parts of your gear which means they last longer.

[Tank]

Frank - I appreciate your experience in rigging but right or wrong the same rules to not apply with 4wd recovery gear, the rating is usually the minimum failure rating so a 12,000LB cable may fail at 12,000LB - if you put a cable of 12,000LB SWL on a vehicle winch it would never fit. Likewise the winch itself is rated at 12,000LB - not SWL but the minimum failure load. So following rigging rules we actually need winches about 3 times bigger than we currently use.

I actually think that the 17,000LB rope used is a good match to the 12,000LB winch - irrespective of swls or min breaking points etc the rope in theory is stronger than the winch so with correct use should have been OK.

Garry

Garry, first a winch can only be rated to the SWL of the cable, but in 4WD recovery situations (which is basically no different to everyday rigging and the same laws of physics apply). If you look at any commercial crane it will have the SWL or WLL clearly posted on the crane jib (usually), a 10T crane does not have 10T GBS wire rigged on it, the crane is rated at the SWL of the wire rope used, not what the manufacturer says the winch is rated at. The winch would be rated much higher than the GBS of the rope on a crane. 4WD winches should be rated for all our safety sakes at the SWL of the rope/cable, the weakest point is at the GBS of the rope/cable.
My point being that if as the law applies to all other lifting/hauling gear why doesn't it apply to 4WD applications, there would be less accidents.
I say call a spade a spade, put the SWL on the winch (with appropriate wire/rope) and work to that level, in the 20+ years as a rigger on sites all over Australia I have never seen a sling/winch cable break because of overloading, in 4WD'ing it is an expected regular occurrence.
I agree the Rope is stronger, BUT it will not keep it's integrity once it has been abused, esp. if the fibres are full of grit, another good reason to know the SWL/WLL and work to it and not above on the other hand wire cables worst enemy is the snatch block, the readily available blocks are too small in diameter and they will break wires and cause kinking.
11mm to 12mm wire rope is about right for most 4WD applications, 10mm 7 strand gal. wire rope is good for about 1100 to 1200 kgs SWL and should not be a problem if you stick close to the SWL, hope this helps mate, Regards Frank.

[isuzurover]

Garry, first a winch can only be rated to the SWL of the cable, but in 4WD recovery situations (which is basically no different to everyday rigging and the same laws of physics apply). If you look at any commercial crane it will have the SWL or WLL clearly posted on the crane jib (usually), a 10T crane does not have 10T GBS wire rigged on it, the crane is rated at the SWL of the wire rope used, not what the manufacturer says the winch is rated at. The winch would be rated much higher than the GBS of the rope on a crane. 4WD winches should be rated for all our safety sakes at the SWL of the rope/cable, the weakest point is at the GBS of the rope/cable.
My point being that if as the law applies to all other lifting/hauling gear why doesn't it apply to 4WD applications, there would be less accidents.
I say call a spade a spade, put the SWL on the winch (with appropriate wire/rope) and work to that level, in the 20+ years as a rigger on sites all over Australia I have never seen a sling/winch cable break because of overloading, in 4WD'ing it is an expected regular occurrence.
I agree the Rope is stronger, BUT it will not keep it's integrity once it has been abused, esp. if the fibres are full of grit, another good reason to know the SWL/WLL and work to it and not above on the other hand wire cables worst enemy is the snatch block, the readily available blocks are too small in diameter and they will break wires and cause kinking.
11mm to 12mm wire rope is about right for most 4WD applications, 10mm 7 strand gal. wire rope is good for about 1100 to 1200 kgs SWL and should not be a problem if you stick close to the SWL, hope this helps mate, Regards Frank.

I tend to agree Frank, however IME most incidents in 4x4 recovery are caused by:

Poorly made or rusty recovery points.
Tow balls
The use of low grade or ungraded/unrated bolts and shackles
Worn or damaged straps/ropes/cables

On top of that, in lifting it is very easy to calculate what your load is, as it is simply the mass you are lifting. Most 4x4ers wouldn't be able to calculate the load they are pulling/recovering, as it is largely unrelated to the mass of any of the vehicles involved.

[Blknight.aus]

Garry, first a winch can only be rated to the SWL of the cable, but in 4WD recovery situations (which is basically no different to everyday rigging and the same laws of physics apply). If you look at any commercial crane it will have the SWL or WLL clearly posted on the crane jib (usually), a 10T crane does not have 10T GBS wire rigged on it, the crane is rated at the SWL of the wire rope used, not what the manufacturer says the winch is rated at. The winch would be rated much higher than the GBS of the rope on a crane. 4WD winches should be rated for all our safety sakes at the SWL of the rope/cable, the weakest point is at the GBS of the rope/cable.
My point being that if as the law applies to all other lifting/hauling gear why doesn't it apply to 4WD applications, there would be less accidents.
I say call a spade a spade, put the SWL on the winch (with appropriate wire/rope) and work to that level, in the 20+ years as a rigger on sites all over Australia I have never seen a sling/winch cable break because of overloading, in 4WD'ing it is an expected regular occurrence.
I agree the Rope is stronger, BUT it will not keep it's integrity once it has been abused, esp. if the fibres are full of grit, another good reason to know the SWL/WLL and work to it and not above on the other hand wire cables worst enemy is the snatch block, the readily available blocks are too small in diameter and they will break wires and cause kinking.
11mm to 12mm wire rope is about right for most 4WD applications, 10mm 7 strand gal. wire rope is good for about 1100 to 1200 kgs SWL and should not be a problem if you stick close to the SWL, hope this helps mate, Regards Frank.

close but no...

a cranes winch is rated to less than the MBS of the rope the crane itself is rated to the lower SWL of the Boom OR the reeving of the cable. Hypothetically its not possible to break the cable on a crane using the power of the winch alone, the cable must be damaged OR you have to jib up and overload the cable that way.


for example a 10t Crane might only have a 1t cable (wll) on it the winch would likely be rated to a 950KG pull and probably something like 1500KG hold. To lift 10T the cable would be reeved 11 times BUT.... The SWL is also dependant on the position and configuration of the cranes boom.


for Isuzu rover....

most snatch blocks Ive ever seen that have a SWL on them the diameter of the pully is larger than the diameter of the drum on an electrc winch. and most of them are larger than the minimum 10x diameter required for a standard SWR.