86" Engine options - thoughts/advice?

[Warb]

I have an S1 that I would like to get back on the road. It has been registered in QLD, and has had the engine changed to a Holden 186. The engine change is reflected in the (expired) QLD registration papers and a mod plate is fitted. However I am in NSW, and the RMS inform me that the QLD plate is irrelevant and I must get the change re-certified in NSW.

The new engine was apparently fitted with a later model LR bellhousing to allow use of the LR clutch, and no chassis modifications were required.

I assume (?!) that because this is not an unusual swap, and that is uses a commercially made adaptor with no welding or changes to the chassis, that the certification should be relatively straightforward. However it is a 2+ hour drive to the tester, and (though he has yet to respond to my message) I imagine it will be expensive - the inspection and paperwork for slightly oversized mud tyres on a Prado was quoted by a different (non-engine) inspector at $1500 a couple of years ago....

The other option is to refit the original, or equivalent, engine. I do have the original engine, it is not seized but when I acquired it I was told it "would need reconditioning". I do not know what, if anything, is wrong with it, and it is my understanding that it was replaced to get more power for modern driving. I have at least one spare 86" S1 engine as well. As no chassis changes were made in the conversion, and I still have the original bellhousing, I imagine that refitting the old engine would be reasonably straightforward, though I might be dreaming!

The vehicle will not be a daily driver, but will be a fun car for summer use. However as we live in a rural area, where 100kph is the norm, some additional power would be nice to have just to avoid the semi's trying to push us up the hills! The vehicle has an overdrive, and at some stage I might upgrade the brakes.

So does anyone have any thoughts or guidance with regard to certifying the 186 or rebuilding/refitting the original 2L?

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Firstly, what radiator is it using? If using the original Land Rover one it is almost unheard of not having to cut out a section from the front cross member. If using a thin Holden radiator, you'll likely find it has overheating problems.

The bellhousing is not a great issue, the gearset inside an 86" box is essentially the same as the gearset in later boxes up to suffix A in series IIa.

IMHO the easiest fix would be to get a good 2 1/4litre Land Rover engine off anything up to SIII. It fits within the same manufacturer/series and capacity rules so only needs a blue slip certificate. A Holden even though a similar capacity (in some cases) is outside the same manufacturer rule and needs an engineer's certificate at a much greater cost.

Getting a good engine is the issue. But Landy 4 cyl seem to go for ages.

Diana

[Warb]

OK, I'd been looking at the engine mounts, but yes the front cross member has been cut to allow for the radiator to be repositioned. It has been sliced out from a point inboard of the steering relay, about halfway down the PTO hole. However it doesn't look like too much effort to fabricate a new section to restore it to its original shape.

I do happen to have a good 2.25L engine on hand, and if it complies to the "same model" rules then you are right, it is probably the way to go. Thank you, your post has probably saved me a great deal of time and money!

Would I be right to think that once the Holden engine and adapter plate are removed, a 2.25L should bolt straight to the current (unspecified "later model") bellhousing, using the 2.25L clutch plate and cover with the existing (S1?) bearing?

[JDNSW]

Yes, should fit to the bell housing with no issues. The 2.25 is a bit of a squeeze in the 86 (that is why 2" was added so the 2l diesel, which is the same size as the petrol, would fit), but plenty of people have done it, so you should be OK.

I would confirm the "same manufacturer" rule with RMS, and preferably with whoever you plan on getting the blue slip from.

John

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Remember you could reasonably argue the 2 litre diesel from the Series one and Series two is the basis for the 2 1/4L petrol engine and the 2 litre petrol IOE engine was also in the 1958 series two. making it the same series of engine/vehicle. (For that matter Land Rover series vehicles are the classic example of a series of vehicles )



[ame="http://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/documents/roads/safety-rules/standards/vsi-06-light-vehicle-modifications.pdf"]http://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/documents/roads/safety-rules/standards/vsi-06-light-vehicle-modifications.pdf[/ame]

[Warb]

I'm fairly sure that my local blue slip inspector would be happy with a 2.25L engine, and in fact I doubt that he'd even know it wasn't the original.

There is another issue that has just cropped up that makes a non-inspection engine option more sensible. I've just spoken to the nearest mod-plate inspector, and whilst he was very friendly and helpful he raised a couple of other points:

1/ The only petrol available for purchase is unleaded, and therefore by definition all engines now run on unleaded fuel, even if we add lead replacement. Apparently the regulations now state that any vehicle running on unleaded fuel MUST be fitted with a catalytic converter. The rule has no bearing on a standard vehicle of this age, except that if it is modified it suddenly has to comply to have the mod approved. So by his interpretation of the regulations, any engine change requiring approval MUST have a cat fitted. However (I told you he was helpful) he checked the regulations and there is a line that says "where possible". He believes that in an 86" vehicle there may be insufficient physical space to safely and correctly fit a cat, so he would be willing to let that slide.

2/ Brakes. Disregarding the logic that says it requires the same braking force to slow down from a given speed regardless of how fast you accelerated to get to that speed, apparently the regulations require him to ensure that the braking capability matches the power of the engine. So whilst 10" single leading shoes might be legal and adequate (?) for the original engine, if the power is increased with a new engine then he must consider whether the brakes are still adequate before he can approve that new engine.

So in a nutshell, any modification that requires approval largely means that the "1956ness" of the vehicle goes away, and all related aspects have to comply with modern regulations or at least match the actual modification. More power = more brakes etc.

For anyone interested, the fee's are largely fixed and the approval inspection and RMS paperwork add up to about $900 including GST. To get registered there is also a weighbridge ticket and blue slip inspection (about $70).

I have yet to make a final decision, but I'm off to measure the length of the 2.25L in comparison to the Holden.....

[russellrovers]

OK, I'd been looking at the engine mounts, but yes the front cross member has been cut to allow for the radiator to be repositioned. It has been sliced out from a point inboard of the steering relay, about halfway down the PTO hole. However it doesn't look like too much effort to fabricate a new section to restore it to its original shape.

I do happen to have a good 2.25L engine on hand, and if it complies to the "same model" rules then you are right, it is probably the way to go. Thank you, your post has probably saved me a great deal of time and money!

Would I be right to think that once the Holden engine and adapter plate are removed, a 2.25L should bolt straight to the current (unspecified "later model") bellhousing, using the 2.25L clutch plate and cover with the existing (S1?) bearing?

hi warb if you require the front chassi section i have one here can post regards jim orignal rust free

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Let me get this straight.

The vehicle has never been registered in NSW and therefore has no record in the NSW database.

You want to fit a 1956 (pre-ADR) vehicle with what could be a 1958 (pre-ADR) engine that would have had exactly the same brakes on the original vehicle as the 86 already has.

Cancel any Qld Rego the vehicle may have, shove the engine in and get a Blue Slip. (Its a pity you have already spoken to the Blue Slip examiner, had you merely presented the vehicle with a 2 1/4 it would probably have gone straight through.)

[Warb]

Actually it had not occurred to me to use a 2.25L motor until you mentioned it. But I did discuss the option of refitting the 2L motor with the blue slip examiner, and he was happy with it. Being as this is a small town and he does all our vehicle regos and servicing, has blue slipped several vehicles for me (including newly built trailers), I'm pretty sure that he'll be happy with the 2.25L..... If I don't tell him otherwise he'll probably just assume it is the original motor!!

The Holden seems to be about 30 - 31 inches from bellhousing to fan, and the 2.25L is almost exactly the same length. So with any luck it will drop straight in!!

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Hi Warb

As John mentioned the 86" became 88" by moving the front axle 2" forward to accommodate for the sump on the 2litre diesel/2 1/4lire petrol. so it would be worthwhile packing under the engine mounts a little so the engine breather and carby/inlet hose just clear the underside of the bonnet. This will reduce the chance of the axle housing hitting the sump a little.

Your radiator should already have the inlet on right (right) side although you may need to look for a standard grill/radiator support.

Diana