Inside the mind of a terrorist.

[VladTepes]

This thread is not light-hearted. Quite the reverse, in fact.
Makes for intriguing and maddening reading though.

With the Compliments of Frank Mount & the Asia Pacific Strategy Council

The Mind and Doctrines of a Radical Islamist Leader

An Interview with Abu Bakar Bashir

This interview, which was first published by the Jamestown Foundation, Washington DC, on 16 September, 2005,was conducted on August 13 and 15, 2005 in Cipinang Prison, Jakarta. Questions were formulated by Dr. Scott Atran and posed for him in Behasa Indonesian by Taufiq Andrie. The interview took place in a special visitor's room, where Ba'asyir had seven acolytes acting as his bodyguards, including Taufiq Halim, the perpetrator of the Atrium mall bombing in Jakarta, and Abdul Jabbar, who blew up the Philippines ambassador's house.


The transcript follows the short introduction below. It has been edited by the Asia Pacific Strategy Council (APSC). The full text and extensive footnotes are available on request.

( APSC Comment: After having Abu Bakar Bashir first arrested and jailed for terrorism in 1979, the late general Ali Moertopo said that if "these people" were not dealt with "they would destroy us all". At the time, and for years afterwards, authorities in Indonesia and Australia ignored his words. They don't now.)

Background

In this interview, the alleged terrorist leader Abu Bakar Ba'asyir provides his justification for waging jihad against the West. He also explains the calculus of suicide bombers and discusses his interpretation of Islam concerning war and infidels. Despite accusations that he is head of the al-Qaeda-linked Jemaah Islamiyah (JI) terrorist organization and has planned the most lethal terrorist attacks in Southeast Asia, Ba'asyir has only been convicted on conspiracy charges in the 2002 attack on a Bali nightclub that killed 202 people. His 30-month sentence for his role in that bombing, which included scores of Australian tourists among the casualties, was recently reduced by four months and 15 days.

Just outside the visitor's cell is Hasyim, who runs Ba'asyir's daily errands. Hasyim is a member of Majlis Mujahidin Indonesian (MMI), the country's umbrella organization for militant Islamist groups headed by Ba'asyir. Like many Jemaah Islamiyah (JI) members, including Ba'asyir and JI founder Abdullah Sungkar, Hasyim originally came from Darul Islam, a post-independence group banned by the Suharto regime that has operated semi-clandestinely in Indonesian society much as the Muslim Brotherhood has in the Middle East.

Al Qa'ida
In 1993, Sungkar split from DI, bringing with him most of the Indonesian Afghan Alumni that he and Ba'asyir had sent to fight the Soviets. Until Suharto's downfall in 1998, Sungkar and Ba'asyir expanded their network of Islamist schools from exile in Malaysia, funnelling students to training camps in Afghanistan and the Philippines, and expanding JI's influence across Southeast Asia. After Sungkar's death in 1999, Ba'asyir became "Emir" of JI - a position and organization whose existence he publicly denies but for which there is overwhelming evidence, including from current and former JI members Dr. Atran has interviewed. Although Sungkar himself established direct ties with Osama bin Laden, it is under Ba'asyir's stewardship that JI has adopted key aspects of al-Qaeda ideology and methods, targeting the interests of the 'far enemy' (the U.S. and its allies) with suicide bombings (Bali, Marriot Jakarta, Australian Embassy) in support of global jihad.

Referred to as Ustadz ("teacher"), Ba'asyir is surrounded by visiting family and students who offer him a daily assortment of news magazines and foods, especially dates, his favorites. His disciples tend to be well-educated, often university graduates, and they wash his clothes. Ba'asyir's wife visits him once a month, and Ustadz offers to share the food she prepared with his prison mates, including Christians. He is a lanky, bespectacled Hadrami (a descendent from the Hadramawt region of Yemen, like bin Laden and Sungkar) who fasts twice a week, on Mondays and Thursdays. He is 66 and seemingly in good health. Dressed in a white robe, red sarong and white cap, he is sitting on a wooden chair, one foot up perched on the edge. He exudes politeness and is all smiles, with a strong voice and easy laugh he answers questions as if teaching.

Transcript
Q. You say that it is fardh 'ain [an individual obligation] for Muslims to wage jihad against Infidels.

A. There are two types of infidels. The infidel who is against Islam and declares war on Islam is called kafir harbi [enemy infidel]. The second type is kafir dhimmi [protected infidel]. These are people who don't fight against Islam, but don't embrace it either and basically remain neutral.


Q. What is the principle of Hudaybiyah [the covenant between prophet Muhammad and the People of the Book]?

A. Hudaybiyah means different things according to the legal situation. When Islam is strong, we come to the infidel's country, not to colonize but to watch over it so that the infidel cannot plan to ruin Islam. Everywhere, infidels conspire to ruin Islam. There is no infidel who wouldn't destroy Islam if they were given even a small chance. Therefore, we have to be vigilant.

Q. What are the conditions for Islam to be strong?

A. If there is a state, the infidel country must be visited and spied upon. My argument is that if we don't come to them, they will persecute Islam. They will prevent non-Muslims converting to Islam.

Suicide

Q. Does being a martyr mean being a suicide bomber?

A. There are two types of infidel terms for suicide: first, those who commit suicide out of hopelessness, second, those who commit suicide in order to be remembered as a hero. Both are types of suicide and there is no value in it.

In Islam there are also people who commit suicide out of hopelessness and we call this killing oneself. But if a person defends Islam, and according to his calculations must die in doing so, although he works hard in life, he will still go and die for Islam.
The consideration is: "if I do this, will Islam benefit or lose? If I must die and without my dying Islam will not win, then my dying is allowed." If one can avoid dying that is better. But to die is also permitted. That we called istimata or istijhad. Istimata [to seek death, also istishhad to become a shaheed] means looking to become a shaheed [martyr] and istijhad [becoming a jihadi] means the same. Because to die in jihad is noble.
According to Islam, to die is a necessity because everyone dies. But to seek the best death is what we call "Husn ul-Khatimah," and the best way to die is to die as a shaheed.

Q. Would it be possible for an act of martyrdom to be aborted if the same results can be assured by other actions? For example, a roadside bomb.

A. For sure, if there are better ways to carry out an action and we don't have to sacrifice our lives, those ways must be chosen. Because our strength can be used for other purposes.

Q. Is it acceptable to postpone a martyrdom action in order to make the hajj [pilgrimage to Mecca]?
A. A martyrdom action cannot be postponed in this case because jihad is more important than making the hajj. For example one of most revered ulema, Ibn Taymiyya, was asked by a rich person:
"O Sheikh, I have so much money but I'm confused about donating my money because there are two needy causes. There are poor people who, if I don't help, will die of starvation. But if I use the money for this purpose, then the Jihad will lack funding. Therefore, I need your fatwah [religious decision] O Sheikh"
Ibn Taymiyya replied: "Give all your money for jihad. If the poor people die, it is because Allah fated it, because if we lose the Jihad, many more people will die."

Ahmadiyah

There is no better deed than jihad. None. The highest deed in Islam is jihad. If we commit to jihad, we can neglect other deeds. America wants to wipe out the teaching of jihad through Ahmadiyah [an Islamic school of thought that believes that Pakistan's Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is the Prophet Muhammad's successor]. Through this organization, America works. Why? Because Ahmadiyah prohibits its followers to undertake jihad because [they argue] jihad is the teaching of Christians. This organization originates from India. Its headquarters are in London, funded by America. Ahmadiyah is America's tool to destroy Islam, including JIL [Jaringan Islam Liberal, Islamic Liberal Network], an NGO in Jakarta that advocates a liberal form of Islam. It is funded by USAID.

Q. So is the idea to postpone not allowed in any circumstances, even in order to visit sick parents?

A. No, no. If we are in jihad, the jihad must come first. Unless jihad is in [the state of] fardh kifayah [a collective duty, for the nation]. If jihad is in [the state of] fardh 'ain [an individual duty], jihad must be number one. There is no obligation to ask permission from one's parents. But even if jihad is still in the fardh kifayah state, such as jihad to spy on infidel countries, Muslims don't require their parent's permission.

Q. Can a martyrdom action be permanently abandoned if there is a good chance that the martyr's family would be killed in a retaliation action? similarly if the community where the martyr is from will also experience retaliation and casualties?

A. That is the risk and the consequence of jihad. If the martyr's family understands Islam deeply, they will obtain many rewards. Their reward will come, if they understand. A martyr must have ikhlas [sincerity]. The parent who understands this concept must be thankful to Allah. This is the spirit of jihad that most scares the infidels. This is a moral force. According to General De Gaulle, moral force is 80% and actual action only 20% [of successful combat]. For infidels the motivation is to be a hero or [to die for] the nation. Some are even encouraged to drink [alcohol] so that they can become brave. Russia was badly defeated in Afghanistan. [Afghanistan] is different than Eastern Europe which could be conquered in only a month or two. Russians thought [that they could conquer] Afghanistan in two weeks maximum because its people were backward, isn't that right? That was Russia's calculation based on their experience in Eastern Europe. But Afghanistan fought Russia back with their aqidah [by following Islamic doctrine] in the way of jihad.

I'll tell you a story so that you'll understand. There was an Afghan mother who made cakes. She asked her children to distribute the cakes to the mujahideen. One by one her children were hit by shells on their way to deliver the cakes. When the mujahideen informed her they said : "Dear mother, please be strong because your children are martyred." [The mother replied]: "I'm not crying for my children but I'm crying because I don't know who'll bring my cakes to the mujahideen." Then one of the mujahideen agreed to replace her children. So, this is the spirit of jihad. You find ikhlas and willingness. Prophet Muhammad said: "I want to make jihad then die, then live again, then do jihad again, then live again, then jihad - for ten times." This is because of the noble status for Muslims who became shaheed.

Maximise Casualties
Q. Do you think the community which believes in martyrdom actions cares if the martyr only manages to blow up himself/herself and fails to kill any of the enemy?

A. No, [provided that] the ni'at [intention] to be a shaheed must be for Allah. During battle it is different. Istimata is also different. Still, the whole notion revolves around martyrdom. But in places like London and in America there must be other calculations. In battle it is best to cause as many casualties as possible.

Q. Do you think God favors or cares more for the martyr who manages to kill 100 enemies or one enemy?

A. The value [nilai] and reward [pahala] is the same.

Q. In regard to the global condition, what kind of things can the West, especially America, do to make this world more peaceful. What kind of attitudes must be changed?

A. They have to stop fighting Islam, but that's impossible because it is "sunnatullah" [destiny, a law of nature], as Allah has said in the Qur'an. They will constantly be enemies. But they'll lose. I say this not because I am able to predict the future but they will lose and Islam will win. That was what the Prophet Muhammad has said. Islam must win and Westerners will be destroyed. But we don't have to make them enemies if they allow Islam to continue to grow so that in the end they will probably agree to be under Islam. If they refuse to be under Islam, it will be chaos. Full stop. If they want to have peace, they have to accept to be governed by Islam.

Bush

Q. What if they persist?

A. We'll keep fighting them and they'll lose. The batil [falsehood] will lose sooner or later. I sent a letter to Bush. I said that you'll lose and there is no point for you [to fight us]. This [concept] is found in the Qur'an. The other day, I asked my lawyer to send that letter to the [U.S.] embassy. I don't know whether the embassy passed on my letter to Bush [telling him], "You are useless, you'll lose." There are verses in the Qur'an that say, "You spend so much money yet you'll be disappointed." The verse is clear so I'm not some one who can predict the future but I get the information from Allah, so I'll never be sad because I believe the time will come. Still, I feel that the Ummah [Muslim community] has a problem now. If the Ummah loses the [current] battle it isn't because of Islam. A Muslim, as long as he is not "broken" [and remains committed to Allah's rule] will get help from Allah.

Q. How about using nuclear weapons by Muslims, is it justified?

A. Yes, if necessary. But the Islamic Ummah should seek to minimalize [the intensity of the fighting]. Allah has said in verse 8 chapter 60 that we should equip ourself with weapon power*that is an order*but preferably to scare and not to kill our enemy. The main goal is to scare them. If they are scared they won't bother us, and then we won't bother them as well. But if they persist, we have to kill them. In this way, Prophet Muhammad sought to minimalize the fighting.

Q. In your personal view, what do you think of bombings in our homeland, namely the Bali, Marriott and Kuningan bombings?

A. I call those who carried out these actions all mujahid. They all had a good intention, that is, Jihad in Allah's way, the aim of the jihad is to look for blessing from Allah. They are right that America is the proper target because America fights Islam. So in terms of their objectives, they are right, and the target of their attacks was right also. But their calculations are debatable. My view is that we should do bombings in conflict areas not in peaceful areas. We have to target the place of the enemy, not countries where many Muslims live.

Q. What do you mean by "wrong calculation," that the victims included Muslims?

A. That was one them. In my calculation, if there are bombings in peaceful areas, this will cause fitnah [discord] and other parties will be involved. This is my opinion and I could be wrong. Yet I still consider them mujahid. If they made mistakes, they are only human beings who can be wrong. Moreover, their attacks could be considered as self-defense.

Justifying Bali
Q. Does that mean you think they didn't attack?

A. No, they didn't attack because they defended themselves. They shouldn't be punished. In Bali where 200 people died, it was America's bomb. That was a major attack and Amrozi [the Bali plotter who bought the explosives] doesn't have the capability to do that.

Q. Did Amrozi tell you this himself?

A. He himself was surprised to see the explosion. When he said that it was Allah's help he was right but he didn't make that bomb. America did. There is much evidence to this effect and so the police dare not continue their investigations. According to England's expert, that bomb was not Amrozi's bomb. You should ask Fauzan. He knows this subject. That bomb was a CIA Jewish bomb. The Mossad cooperates with the CIA. I had an exchange of views with the police and they didn't say anything. I said to them, "You are stupid to punish Amrozi if he really knows how to make such a bomb. You should hire him to be a military consultant, because there is no military or police person [in Indonesia] who can make such a bomb." However, when I asked Ali Imron in the court he said: "Yes, I did it" I believe him [that he made one of the smaller bombs that went off]. A bomb expert from Australia said that anyone who believes that Amrozi and friends made that [bigger] bomb is an idiot; [this is also the opinion of] a bomb expert from England whose comments I read in a magazine. If Amrozi really did make that bomb, he deserves the Nobel Prize. So, the death penalty is not fair.

Q. I want to ask your opinion of Nasir Abas's book where he said that you are the Emir of JI?

A. This is a traitor, a betrayer. I was in Malaysia and I had a jama'ah [congregation] the name of which was Jama'ah Sunnah. We just studied Islam.

Q. Were you aware that Nasir Abas was your student?

A. Yes, I was. But he was not the only one there; he also studied with Ustadz Hasyim Gani. I joined his group. He died. I think Nassir Abas's book is [written] on orders from the police and for money.

Q. According to you, the book is incorrect, especially on Jemaah Islamiyah and you being its Emir?

A. This is not a court and the real court has failed to prove it.

Q. What was Nasir Abas's motivation in writing that book?

A. I don't know. But basically he got orders from the police and received some money. I think that was his motivation. He doesn't have the courage to meet me. If I meet him, I'll send him to do jihad in Chechnya or to the Southern Philippines so that Allah will accept his remorse [taubah]. He invented his own story.

Q. I heard that Nasir Abas came here. Did he meet you?

A. No, he came here to meet others.

Al Qa'ida and bin Laden

Q. If I may know, when was the first time you heard the name al-Qaeda?

A. After the police questioned me; during the time I was filing a law suit against TIME magazine. Do you remember when I did that? They wanted me to take 100 million rupiah to stop the case but I didn't. But I don't know anymore about the case. During that time, I was under suspicion but I wasn't arrested. That was the first time I heard the name al-Qaeda. A policeman from the intelligence section whose name I forget interrogated me from morning until afternoon. He asked about that name [al-Qaeda]. That was the first time I heard of it. Before, I never heard of it. I went to Pakistan but I didn't hear that name. I went there to accompany my son and meet some Arabs but I never heard that name.

Q. How about Shaykh Osama bin Laden?

A. I heard his name a long time ago. I read his writings, saw his tapes and met Arabs in Pakistan who talked about him when I accompanied my son, Abdur Rahim. Who didn't know Osama? He was a mujahid against the Soviets and he had his own military that he funded by himself. He was a hero who America also praised. He was then also supported by America. America was piggybacking on him because America didn't have the courage to fight against the Soviets. They were afraid of the Soviets and they relied on the Afghans.

Q. Have you ever him?

A. No, no. I want to though. After my release, I hope I can meet him.

Q. Where will you find him?

A. If he still exists*but how could I? On Osama, my stand in court was clear. I have sympathy for his struggle. Osama is Allah's soldier. When I heard his story, I came to the conclusion that he's mujahid, a soldier of Allah.

Q. So you will always be on his side?

A. Many say this and Osama is right. His tactics and calculations may sometimes be wrong, he's an ordinary human being after all. I don't agree with all of his actions. He encouraged people to do bombings. I don't agree with that. He said that JI followed his fatwah. His fatwah said that all Americans must be killed wherever they can be found, because America deserves it. Therefore [according to bin Laden] if Muslims come across Americans, they have to attack them. Osama believes in total war. This concept I don't agree with. If this occurs in an Islamic country, the fitnah [discord] will be felt by Muslims. But to attack them in their country [America] is fine.

Permanent Revolution
Q. So it means that the fight against America will never end?

A. Never, and this fight is compulsory. Muslims who don't hate America sin. What I mean by America is George Bush's regime. There is no iman [belief] if one doesn't hate America. There are three ways of attacking: with your hand, your mouth and your heart.

Q. Does this mean America's government? Its policies?

A. If its citizens are good that's fine, especially the Muslim citizens. They are our brothers. Non-Muslims are also fine as long as they don't bother us. A witness at my trial, Frederick Burks, wrote that he's against Bush.

Q. How can the American regime and its policies change?

A. We'll see. As long as there is no intention to fight us and Islam continues to grow there can be peace. This is the doctrine of Islam. Islam can't be ruled by others. Allah's law can't be under human law. Allah's law must stand above human law. All laws must be under Islamic law. This is what the infidels fail to recognize, that's what America doesn't like to see. You should read a book, "The Face of Western Civilization" by Adian Husaini. It's a good book, a thick one. The conclusion of the book is that Western scholars hold an anti-Islamic doctrine. It is true there will be a clash of civilizations. The argumentation is correct that there will be a clash between Islam and the infidels. There is no [example] of Islam and infidels, the right and the wrong, living together in peace.



That last line is really the key, in my view, to his psyche - he does not want it to stop - ever.

This is all OPEN SOURCE material (I certainly wouldn't be posting it here otherwise).

Should you wish to read the entire interview, it can be found at www.jamestown.org/terrorism/news/article.php?articleid=2369782

[rmp]

Thanks for posting that. Clearly not a man who can be negotiated with and the sooner he's dead the safer the planet will be.

However.

He is a radical, and there are lots of harmless loonies in the world. What makes him powerful is that there are a *lot* of people who while they wouldn't bomb, or fully sympathise with his views, they'd turn a blind eye, indirectly support and so the terrorist movement grows. Those are the people you can influence and negotiate with.

[George130]

Interesting read. I'll leave it at that.