Replace torque converter or rebuild trans?

[CanadianRyan]

My '08 TDV6 is starting to display the signs of torque converter shudder / failure. This is a little surprising since it only has 160k on the clock, and the gearbox has been flushed three times in its life. I don't do much towing, but when I do it's a fairly lightweight camper trailer. The car has only began towing in the last 20K or so. Alas, on the last trip it threw code P0741-00 and now has light shudder at low RPMs.

SO, the question is do I just replace the torque converter or get a full rebuild done? I can get a new torque converter fitted for around $2800 and a full rebuild for $7500 - big difference in cost.

I don't have any other gearbox symptoms and shifting has always been smooth.

Is there any reason to do the full rebuild? What's likely to fail in these boxes? Is there any way to test the box to assess its current state of health? Any advice appreciated!
Ryan

[PerthDisco]

Sorry to hear.
Was that advice of the workshop mechanic or the transmission specialist shop?

Reading hear recently about using a couple of bottles of Dr Tranny as a solution with good success rate when used for early ‘glazing’ shudder symptoms.

D3 TDV6 torque convertor problem
D3 TDV6 torque convertor problem

Good luck.

[TFromT]

Will present my similar story that could assist you in making a decision..

My 2.7 RRS began to experience very light shudder at around 90km/h not long after i bought the car (~210k km). I got another 50k out of it before the shudder got any worse. Was now getting a 'hot smell' when in sport mode for extended periods, and then not too long after (5-10k km?), began getting trans overheating error codes when in sport mode for more than 10mins or so (i.e. when the converter is permanently locked). Revs would fluctuate as it was trying to lock converter in non-sport mode as well; obviously time to sort it out!!

Mechanic reckoned a new torque converter and several trans oil flushes and filters would get the gearbox to a point it would see out the rest of the car out (it at around 265k km at this stage), and save some money. So with new converter and good flush (to get all the burnt oil and crud out) there was immediate improvement and gearbox behaves just as it should. An occasional clunky shift between 3rd to 2nd still present which I think signifies the condition of the remainder of the tranny, but otherwise happy to have saved the money by only replacing the torque converter. Have done 10k km since this and so far feel like it will see out the remainder of the car (at 275k km now).

So from my experience, if any clunkiness between gears then possibly points to overall condition of tranny, and perhaps full rebuild request considering low-km on the vehicle. If it is just acting up when converter locked (or attempting to), then perhaps just a torque converter? Hope all this ramble can help you along somehow!

[gavinwibrow]

My '08 TDV6 is starting to display the signs of torque converter shudder / failure. This is a little surprising since it only has 160k on the clock, and the gearbox has been flushed three times in its life. I don't do much towing, but when I do it's a fairly lightweight camper trailer. The car has only began towing in the last 20K or so. Alas, on the last trip it threw code P0741-00 and now has light shudder at low RPMs.

SO, the question is do I just replace the torque converter or get a full rebuild done? I can get a new torque converter fitted for around $2800 and a full rebuild for $7500 - big difference in cost.

I don't have any other gearbox symptoms and shifting has always been smooth.

Is there any reason to do the full rebuild? What's likely to fail in these boxes? Is there any way to test the box to assess its current state of health? Any advice appreciated!
Ryan

Cant hurt to have a talk with Cameron at Auto Trans R Us in Balcatta - proper straight shooter and the WA gurus/go to for transmissions. Highly recommended/very approachable/drives a 4WD.

[CanadianRyan]

Sorry to hear.
Was that advice of the workshop mechanic or the transmission specialist shop?

Reading hear recently about using a couple of bottles of Dr Tranny as a solution with good success rate when used for early ‘glazing’ shudder symptoms.

D3 TDV6 torque convertor problem
D3 TDV6 torque convertor problem

Good luck.

Thanks. Yes I've read about Dr Tranny as a temporary solution which might last 10-20K extra kms before other work should be done. I might give it a go, but curious to know what others think about the longer term solutions as I hope to keep the car for a long time. Cheers
Ryan

[brad72]

Well I feel I can speak from experience now as I put up with terrible shuddering for 40,000km and had a full rebuild done this week and pick the car up tomorrow. My shifting was fine and no errors codes ever came up. 200,000 km on my box.

My shuddering started intermittently on light throttle in 3rd at 1600-1800. Over time it moved to 4th, 5th and 6th and would shudder up to 2,400rpm. At 110kmh the shudder would go as the TC would not modulate, the same as in 1st and 2nd. Shudder Fixx worked for around 4,000km, then the second tube for another 2,000km. It then got steadily worse . Hills around town needed to be tackled in 2nd or gun it in 3rd and get the revs over 2500rpm. Pretty annoying as you can imagine. Shuddering in the last 20,000km was in both light and heavy throttle.

So, the plan was to just replace the TC if the rest of the parts looked ok or do the rebuild.

The shop removed the box, sent off the TC for a rebuild, then checked the valve body for leaks using the vacuum tester. TC shudder is often caused by wear in the valves which cause pressure drops. In my box the valve body was perfect but when dismantled all of the bushes were flogged plus the clutches were starting to go so a full rebuild was the most sensible choice given we are keeping the vehicle. I only got as long as i did because I drove it more like a manual (in sports mode), lifted the foot as soon as a shudder was felt, and live on the coast so pretty flat.

Have to admit it is pretty impressive seeing all the components out on the workbench when you see how small a space they fit into.

The issue of only doing the TC and servicing the valve body is if other components fail down the track the TC would need to be replaced again (due to getting contaminated by debris) when a full rebuild is done. Being able to carefully inspect the components however when the box is out will enable an educated decision.

Apparently when the boxes were build the filter was quite a large micron one so it wouldn't block during the warranty period (sealed for life). This means that not all the contaminants get caught which start to wear the bushes and valves. Contaminants also collect in the perimeter of the TC due to the centrifugal force. When we change the oil and fit the lower micron filter, some of these contaminants come loose and can accelerate the wear and cause faster failure.

[Eric SDV6SE]

Well I feel I can speak from experience now as I put up with terrible shuddering for 40,000km and had a full rebuild done this week and pick the car up tomorrow. My shifting was fine and no errors codes ever came up. 200,000 km on my box.

My shuddering started intermittently on light throttle in 3rd at 1600-1800. Over time it moved to 4th, 5th and 6th and would shudder up to 2,400rpm. At 110kmh the shudder would go as the TC would not modulate, the same as in 1st and 2nd. Shudder Fixx worked for around 4,000km, then the second tube for another 2,000km. It then got steadily worse . Hills around town needed to be tackled in 2nd or gun it in 3rd and get the revs over 2500rpm. Pretty annoying as you can imagine. Shuddering in the last 20,000km was in both light and heavy throttle.

So, the plan was to just replace the TC if the rest of the parts looked ok or do a rebuild.

The shop removed the box, sent off the TC for a rebuild, then checked the valve body for leaks using the vacuum tester. TC shudder is often caused by wear in the valves which cause pressure drops. In my box the valve body was perfect but when dismantled all of the bushes were flogged plus the clutches were starting to go so a full rebuild was the most sensible choice given we are keeping the vehicle. I only got as long as i did because I drove it more like a manual (in sports mode), lifted the foot as soon as a shudder was felt, and live on the coast so pretty flat.

Have to admit it is pretty impressive seeing all the components out on the workbench when you see how small a space they fit into.

The issue of only doing the TC and servicing the valve body is if other components fail down the track the TC would need to be replaced again (due to getting contaminated by debris) when a full rebuild is done. Being able to carefully inspect the components however when the box is out will enable an educated decision.

Apparently when the boxes were build the filter was quite a large micron one so it wouldn't block during the warranty period (sealed for life). This means that not all the contaminants get caught which start to wear the bushes and valves. Contaminants also collect in the perimeter of the TC due to the centrifugal force. When we change the oil and fit the lower micron filter, some of these contaminants come loose and can accelerate the wear and cause faster failure.

Great read. Just out of interest, did they end up servicing the valve body too? Would make sense to me if doing a full transmission rebuild. You said it was still perfect? My transmission was not shuddering, but shifts were rough. I replaced the end seals, accumulators and valve o rings as well as solenoids. Made a huge difference. The valve body also has an inbuilt filter that clogs and the ends of the galleries get blocked up too.

I reckon with that rebuild and regular fluid changes you're set for next 200,000km. Thanks for the post

[brad72]

Great read. Just out of interest, did they end up servicing the valve body too? Would make sense to me if doing a full transmission rebuild. You said it was still perfect? My transmission was not shuddering, but shifts were rough. I replaced the end seals, accumulators and valve o rings as well as solenoids. Made a huge difference. The valve body also has an inbuilt filter that clogs and the ends of the galleries get blocked up too.

I reckon with that rebuild and regular fluid changes you're set for next 200,000km. Thanks for the post

Thanks Eric

Yep valve body was rebuilt as well. I think the guys were surprised it passed the vacuum test more than anything, and so was i tbh.

Fluid change and filter every 40,000 or 12 months now. He said the lower micron after market filters that come with the steel pan a make a big difference. On my valve body you could see the separator plate gasket material had started to go also, although mainly around teh perimeter.

Below is the gearbox in pieces to decide whether to do a full rebuild or not. They do this as part of the TC and Valve body service.

D4 Gearbox 2.jpgD4 Gearbox 1.jpg

[CanadianRyan]

Thanks Eric

Yep valve body was rebuilt as well. I think the guys were surprised it passed the vacuum test more than anything, and so was i tbh.

Fluid change and filter every 40,000 or 12 months now. He said the lower micron after market filters that come with the steel pan a make a big difference. On my valve body you could see the separator plate gasket material had started to go also, although mainly around teh perimeter.

Below is the gearbox in pieces to decide whether to do a full rebuild or not. They do this as part of the TC and Valve body service.

Thanks for the detailed write up. I wonder if any shops in Perth would go to this sort of effort to inspect / diagnose the issues before repairing. The two places I've spoken to over the phone both suggest rebuild - one would remove it and ship it to Sydney for rebuild by ZF, the other would swap it for a reconditioned unit on their shelf (apparently they keep 2 in stock at all times). Both options are $7500. Given the age of the car and its market value I hesitate to spend about 35-40% of the cars value on a rebuild, especially since I just paid for a new engine install a few months ago. On the other hand I don't want to do a part-fix which will have to be re-done again in a few years. Decisions decisions.
Ryan

[Bewitched]

Thanks for the detailed write up. I wonder if any shops in Perth would go to this sort of effort to inspect / diagnose the issues before repairing. The two places I've spoken to over the phone both suggest rebuild - one would remove it and ship it to Sydney for rebuild by ZF, the other would swap it for a reconditioned unit on their shelf (apparently they keep 2 in stock at all times). Both options are $7500. Given the age of the car and its market value I hesitate to spend about 35-40% of the cars value on a rebuild, especially since I just paid for a new engine install a few months ago. On the other hand I don't want to do a part-fix which will have to be re-done again in a few years. Decisions decisions.
Ryan

It's always hard to make a big dollar repair decision on a vehicle of moderate value. Best way I've found to reconcile these types of decisions is with "man maths". If you are looking for a reason to change to another car, the repair cost you will otherwise incur is added to the trade or taken from the price of the new car, and that becomes your scenario One. Works best if you have another vehicle in mind to fully reconcile this calculation in your mind to consider the effect of your $7,500 "discount".

If, however, you have already made the decision to keep the vehicle (which you appear to have done in this case), then the easiest reconciliation on the costs is to divide the repair bill by the expected time you expect to keep the vehicle. If that time frame is another ten years for example, then the rebuild cost (the option most likely to give another ten years of service) then you have a cost of $750 per year which is not the biggest cost you will spend on the vehicle for sure, and is perhaps pretty reasonable when looked at like that. In ten years' time the value of this vehicle will not really be relevant in any event, and with new engine and gearbox as major mechanical components you should have few issues if any with them (at least) over that time.

Likewise the TC replacement may give you a few more years, but other components in the gearbox not changed now may fail inside three or four years (even sooner), and you have to spend the same money again and do the whole rebuild. You need to get at least 4 years (3.73 to be precise) out of the TC change only without needing rebuild before you were better off getting the full rebuild now.

Man maths at work!

Doesn't help the bank balance when you look at it, but at least puts the options into perspective on some sort of basis to look at the cost-benefit of the options in terms of the life extension provided.

Good luck with your deliberations, and at least a tube or so of Dr Tranny might give you some breathing space in your decision making.