Tow Ball Download weight confusion with state legal

[apilko]

Hi all - I'm new to the group but this issues driving me crazy as there appears too be a lot of conflicting information depending on which view you take. It's a complicated long note so please bear with me...

Spoke to a guy that owns a weigh bridge business and he explained the issues...
Some (not all) of the critical weights to do with towing - GVW which is the max allowed weight of the vehicle (My D4 - 3240kg), The GCM which is the max the car and van can weigh (My D4 - 6,740kg), The tow capacity (3,500kg) and the Tow Ball Download (in this case 280kg). Now the D4 can take up to 350kg of TBD BUT to allow for this you use the 'detachable drawbar receiver' and the manual says that if you do this then you have to reduce the overall GVW by 200kg (tried to attach pic from manual).

BUT if you minus the 200kg off the GVW then that only leaves you 3,040kg - then if you minus the weight of the car with fuel and accessories (2702kg) you end up with a remaining payload of 338kg - NOW 338kg payload is final for passengers and luggage, BUT if that payload has to account for the 290kg of TBD then you're only left with 48kg - not even enough for a driver!

OK that's the numbers now here's the legal stuff. What this guy told me is this - LR and lots of other manufacturers build cars that can take plenty of weight but then the GVW is underquoted on the GVW cert. For example in the case of LR the car has a 1 ton payload but what they do is call it a 750kg payload and then say that you can have the TBD weight as extra (ie not have to include it in calculations) - GREAT - EXECPT NOT GREAT BECAUSE...The registries in VIC and NSW (don't know about the others) have no interest in looking at or approving individual vehicle manuals with particular allowances - instead they simply just take the GVW printed at the time of certification THEREFORE trying to put any decent van weight legally on a Disco is legally very difficult.

He says that this is happening with Nissan, Mitsubishi to name a few. He says that if you're buying a new car you can get them to reassess the GVW before registration and get the manufacturers weights included properly but once registered you can't get it changed without a GVW upgrade. So basically he suggests two options
1) Talk to LR and somehow get them to rectify the vehicle (practically impossible).
2) Get a GVW upgrade - if I get a GVW upgrade won't it mess with the air suspension?

Phew - what a headache this all is - This guy says that 8/10 people he weighs for certification fail because if this kind of error. Have you ever heard of this situation? Is there anyone out there with a Disco that tows a big van (TBD above 250kg) that has a weighbridge cert? Basically if you have an accident and they do the weight calculations then you're not insured. Any advice or hot line to LR or access to GVW upgrade people welcome.

[apilko]

Land Rover tow ball download weight issues…

Spoke to a guy that owns a weigh bridge business and he explained it all to me but still some issues - try and stay with me here...
Here are the relevant critical weights - GVW which is the max allowed weight of the vehicle (My D4 - 3240kg), The GCM which is the max the car and van can weigh (My D4 - 6,740kg), The tow capacity (3,500kg) and the Tow Ball Download (in this case 280kg).


Now the D4 can take up to 350kg of TBD BUT to allow for this you use the 'detachable drawbar receiver' and the manual says that if you do this then you have to reduce the overall GVW by 200kg (see pic). BUT if you minus the 200kg off the GVW then that only leaves you 3,040kg - then if you minus the weight of the car with fuel and accessories (2702kg) you end up with a remaining payload of 338kg - NOW 338kg payload is final for passengers and luggage, BUT if that payload has to account for the 290kg of TBD then you're only left with 48kg - not even enough for a driver.


OK that's the numbers now here's the legal ****. What this guy told me is this - LR and lots of other manufacturers build cars that can take plenty of weight but then the GVW is underquoted on the GVW cert. For example in the case of LR the car has a 1 ton payload but what they do is call it a 750kg payload and then say that you can have the TBD weight as extra (ie not have to include it in calculations) - GREAT - EXECPT NOT GREAT BECAUSE...The registries in VIC and NSW (don't know about the others) have no interest in looking at or approving individual vehicle manuals with particular allowances - instead they simply just take the GVW printed at the time of certification THEREFORE trying to put any decent van weight legally on a Disco is legally impossible without modifications.


He says that this is happening with Nissan, Mitsubishi to name a few. He says that if you're buying a new car you can get them to reassess the GVW before registration and get the manufacturers weights included properly but once registered you can't get it changed without a GVW upgrade.


So basically he suggests two options 1) Talk to LR and somehow get them to rectify the vehicle (practically impossible). 2) Get a GVW upgrade - if I get a GVW upgrade won't if mess with the air suspension?


Phew - what a lheadache this all is - This guy says that 8/10 people he weighs for certification fail because if this kind of error. Have you ever heard of this situation? Do you know anyone with a Disco that tows a big van that has a weighbridge cert?


I really need some help with this as no one seems to want to give me a straight answer except the weighbridge guy who sounds very experienced in this space - but if what he says is true then no one with a Disco would be legally able to tow a bug caravan - which surely can’t be right.

[p38arover]

A few more paragraph breaks would make it much easier to read your post. I gave up.

However, you might want to look up this YouTube video by John Cadogen which summarises it quite well.

Complete guide to heavy towing (GVM, GCM & ATM explained)

[101RRS]

You are looking at the manual - a UK publication. If it was a D3 or RRS I would say have you looked at the Australian Supplement which is a small supplementary publication which changes the ball weight up to a straight 350kg.

Does the D4 have an Australian supplement? I dont know about D4s so check this out.

Garry

[101RRS]

Why post the same question twice?

[josh.huber]

My understanding with a D4 was that the to ball download of 200kg didn't have to be added to the car. It was already allocated.. So.. if I'm right and I'm probably not. if your ball weighs 260kg you only need to add 60kg to the car. I'm sure it said it in the manual. I'll check tonight. I do know that from previous conversations with the book out the D4 outperforms most vehicles with something chasing it

[rocket rod]

Your right it is very complicated. For a start I would probably engage a mobile caravan weighing company rather than a generic weigh bridge. Although your guy's advise is welcome this will give you a far better understanding of what weight is where and how to rectify it. Also, cross GVM upgrade off your list as I don't believe this is possible with your D4 and this maybe law soon RV DAILY | GCM Upgrades - New Draft Federal Code Leaked

[p38arover]

Thanks for adding paragraph breaks - much more betterer (as my neighbour would say).

Why post the same question twice?

I've merged the two posts. I haven't checked to see if they are the same.

[Narangga]

Thanks for adding paragraph breaks - much more betterer (as my neighbour would say).

I thought I had patented that?

[Mungus]

First paragraph correct, second paragraph correct at face value (see below), so if you take your roughly 50kgs of accessories off (I’d guess second battery) you’ll be able to drive it. 🤪 Sorry couldn’t help myself.
Not sure where you got the 1t from in the third paragraph. I have never seen this documented.

Seriously though, there are many threads on this topic and not one of them actually gets to a concise final result and are even more confusing if LRA are asked to clarify.

Regarding your second paragraph. I agree to some extent (although still confusing) with some comments in other threads that 150kg of your 290kg (or max 350TBD) is included in your original stock GVW, so you would only consider in your case adding 140kg of your 290kg to your GVW, but as also mentioned in those other threads the road side weighing officers wouldn’t take that into consideration, let alone be able to understand Land Rovers complicated calculations. Would they have the owners manual to calculate all this or would they simply look at your compliance plates and check GVW, Axle Loads and Hitch.

Another point to consider is this (if you have one), are the Mitch Hitch or other ADR compliant Australian made hitches? Land Rover “approved”? I’d say not and all in the Manual refers to LR’s two types of OEM hitches only, with a warning to only use LR approved.

Interesting in the manual extract you uploaded, top of second column, that in the EU, GVW can be increased by 100kgs so long as you speed limit to 100km/r. Maybe LRA should adopt the same here in Aus.

I got myself in a hissy fit over all these weights and then after researching found that in reality all other manufacturers have the same and/or other issues, even upgraded GVM Toyota’s, which will be a topic I want to discuss in another thread, once I have all the facts and figures.

Load her up to 3240, 6740 and enjoy your travels. Just don’t have an accident.