Replacing tappets, Cam and Rockers

[PaulP38a]

After reading through some articles at RPI Engineering RPi Engineering - V8 Engines I'm concerned that the tappet noise I'm getting in the "refreshed" engine is due to misalignment of the rocker shaft(s) when I reinstalled them, or perhaps that I should have put a shimmy kit in. I didn't even think to check "Tappet pre-load"...

Fortunately, I hope, I've done less than 100Km so far and the tappet noise is not overly loud but still noticable after the engine has been running for a few minutes.

I'm pretty sure power is down a bit from before the "refresh" so maybe I've put the exhaust gaskets on upside-down-reversed too.

Has anyone had experience with the Camhaft, Lifter and Timing Chain kit from RPI Engineering Range Land Rover V8 P38 Camshaft Gems Thor 4.0 4.6 RPi on eBay (end time 06-Nov-09 08:18:09 GMT) and Rocker Shaft kit Rockers shafts V8 Engine Land Rover SD1 TVR Kit Car Rpi on eBay (end time 26-Oct-09 08:12:23 GMT)
or can suggest a local alternative?

Thanks, Paul.

[LOVEMYRANGIE]

The question is, when you put it back together, did you put new lifters on an old cam, new lifters and new cam or if you used all the original parts, did you put the lifters back into the same bores and lobes they run on??
With the latter, you can get differing levels of wear on all lobes and cross installing them will alter the wear pattern on them causing accelerated wear.
Same thing with new lifters on an old cam if the cam lobes are worn and haven't been at least linnished.
In all my years in the OEM engine game, I have never seen the need to shim rockerposts on a hydraulic cam as it defeats the purpose of what a hydraulic cam is. If the lifter clearances are out then you can usually assume that there is wear beyond tolerances and replacing both is the only correct option.

With regards to the RPi cam kits, I have spoken to Chris a few times and without re-chipping, it's not really worth the effort. In his words, stay with a STD cam and as I have found in my classic, even stage 1 upgrade cams will give you dramas as I have found with a Dynotec PC216.

You can get the Rollmaster timing kits locally

Cheers

Andrew

[PaulP38a]

Thanks for your suggestions Andrew.

The question is, when you put it back together, did you put new lifters on an old cam, new lifters and new cam or if you used all the original parts, did you put the lifters back into the same bores and lobes they run on??
With the latter, you can get differing levels of wear on all lobes and cross installing them will alter the wear pattern on them causing accelerated wear.
Same thing with new lifters on an old cam if the cam lobes are worn and haven't been at least linnished.
In all my years in the OEM engine game, I have never seen the need to shim rockerposts on a hydraulic cam as it defeats the purpose of what a hydraulic cam is. If the lifter clearances are out then you can usually assume that there is wear beyond tolerances and replacing both is the only correct option.

I put all the original parts back on. I'm pretty sure I put them back in the same order as I made a map and carfully labelled the position of each individual lifter and pushrod.

I did not disassemble the rocker shafts at all.
I did clean the lifters, pushrods and shafts with WD-40 and clean engine oil before reassembly and then gave it all a good coating of clean engine oil when assembled.
Now you've got me thinking though... I wonder if I might have mixed up the lifters while cleaning them?

With regards to the RPi cam kits, I have spoken to Chris a few times and without re-chipping, it's not really worth the effort. In his words, stay with a STD cam and as I have found in my classic, even stage 1 upgrade cams will give you dramas as I have found with a Dynotec PC216.

You can get the Rollmaster timing kits locally

Thanks, no plans to re-chip at this stage, if ever. I was considering their standard kits rather than the upgrade kits.

I think that perhaps I should take the car over to Canberra Motor Works and let them have a look at it. Time to call in the experts to check my work

Cheers, Paul.

[LOVEMYRANGIE]

I am picking probably more a wear / age thing than anything. If they are still the original lifters, they will more than likely be due for a change. Pushrods generally arent a problem and it doesnt make that much if any difference if they get swapped over.

The ticking may actually be the pushrod seats in the rocker arms themselves. This has caused many a wrongly needed lifter change and has been documented by LR as a fault. The steel seat comes loose in the casting and manifests itself as a ticking. I have tried to find the LR bulletin I know I had in a pdf file but can't seem to find it anywhere ... along with a whole bunch of service bulletins I know i had . I used to have a link to EBSCOhost with all the bulletins available, now thats changed to something else too... AAARRGGHH

If you have Rave, I think its in there somewhere depending on what version you have.
There is a date range on the genuine arm that can be checked to see what version you have.
Maybe check with JC as he would possibly have this somewhere unless I can find it in the meantime...

Cheers

Andrew

[PaulP38a]

I am picking probably more a wear / age thing than anything. If they are still the original lifters, they will more than likely be due for a change. Pushrods generally arent a problem and it doesnt make that much if any difference if they get swapped over.

The ticking may actually be the pushrod seats in the rocker arms themselves. This has caused many a wrongly needed lifter change and has been documented by LR as a fault. The steel seat comes loose in the casting and manifests itself as a ticking. I have tried to find the LR bulletin I know I had in a pdf file but can't seem to find it anywhere ... along with a whole bunch of service bulletins I know i had . I used to have a link to EBSCOhost with all the bulletins available, now thats changed to something else too... AAARRGGHH

If you have Rave, I think its in there somewhere depending on what version you have.
There is a date range on the genuine arm that can be checked to see what version you have.
Maybe check with JC as he would possibly have this somewhere unless I can find it in the meantime...

Cheers

Andrew

the pushrods seating issue wouldn't surprise me, even at the lifter/tappet end. I noticed that a couple of them didn't seem to hold all that well at the lifter end when they were dry.

Safest bet seems to be get CMW to check it out and give me quote to supply new lifters, rockers and arms.

I'll check out those bulletins on Rave too. thanks again.

Cheers, Paul.

[Hoges]

Hi Paul
1. what oil are you using? If you have been generous with the WD40 (not good idea they may be leaking down real quick. Don't use Mobil 1 or full synthetics, they don't promote enough rotation needed to maintain an even wear pattern. For Canberra climate, the Magnatec 15W-40W (as used in diesels) is an excellent choice for the 4/4.6L P38. Also did you "bleed" the lifters before you reinstalled so that they were almost full of oil?
Just a thought before you panic!

2. The combined postage weight of rockers, new shafts and lifters vs replacement cost may make it worth your while to buy them from the UK vs, the often extraordinary replacement cost demanded by local suppliers

Have now bought 3 packages of stuff in from Jaguar | Land Rover spare parts at British Parts UK and with the A$=GBP 56p approx, it's a good time to buy up!

PS the observation from Lovemyrangie re. loose seats in the rockers is valid... hence my need to replace rockers and lifters recently....

cheers
A.

[PaulP38a]

Hi Paul
1. what oil are you using? If you have been generous with the WD40 (not good idea they may be leaking down real quick. Don't use Mobil 1 or full synthetics, they don't promote enough rotation needed to maintain an even wear pattern. For Canberra climate, the Magnatec 15W-40W (as used in diesels) is an excellent choice for the 4/4.6L P38. Also did you "bleed" the lifters before you reinstalled so that they were almost full of oil?
Just a thought before you panic!

Pretty sure last oil change was done at Canberra Motor Works and I know they use Valvoline Durablend (10W-40 I think) for my Rangie. That would have been a few months ago.
Didn't know about bleeding lifters but I do now... No panic here... more like frustration at myself.

The prices at BritishParts are quite good. If I had the spare cash (not much of that with Landies in the family), now would be a good time to stock up on a few spares.

PS the observation from Lovemyrangie re. loose seats in the rockers is valid... hence my need to replace rockers and lifters recently....

I'm guessing that you had to change over the valley gasket and ends seals too? What else did you have to change? e.g. o-ring on cooling rail to manifold, rocker cover gaskets and bolts, upper manifold gasket? Just trying to figure what "new" bits I'm going to have to swap over again.

Cheers, Paul.

[Hoges]

Hi Paul
bought a valley gasket replacement kit which included all O-rings, end bits, rocker cover gaskets etc. also bought some Loctite 518 flange sealant ---used on valley gasket and also on both sides of rocker cover gaskets etc...excellent stuff. Also got some Loctite "BlueMax" 587 OEM spec RTV silicone rubber sealent.

didn't have to change rocker cover bolts.. they are only tightened to a couple of ft/lbs. The later gaskets have brass bushes in the bolt holes to preclude the gasket from being overtightened and squashed.

I did note from your photos that there seemed to be a lot of "crud" on the push rods prior to cleaning... indicates that the oil may not have been changed for quite a while they should be crud-free and a light brown colour.

I'd recommend you use the Magnatec 15-40W diesel and to flush out the rest of the rubbish take it on a run to Yass - Goulburn -Cbr and back and see if it settles down before doing major surgery.. just a thought

[justinc]

I agree with hoges, 100km isn't enough yet. Give it a run and change the oil again before pulling it apart again.

I don't clean rocker shafts etc at all if they are cruddy from lack of oil changing, they will develop all sorts of problems if you dissassemble and reassemble them. In that instance replace with new if you want to.

Have seen a few worn inserts in rocker arms too, well worth a look if the oil changing and a 1000km or so of driving doesn't shut it up.

Yes, a 15W40 is good but in really cold Canberra weather a 10W40 will be fine. Avoid Synthetics for an older engine.

JC

[Hoges]

agree re oil...I run mainly 10W-40W mineral-based even in Bris... the 15W-40W Magnatec diesel formulation however has somewhat more effective detergent properties and holds the " muck" in suspension longer ..
cheers