DIY - Steering guard

Quote:

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Originally Posted by discowhite

what about when bow shackles are use for lifting on say a swivel hook of a crane? they are then verticle and rotating. horizontally or vertically mounted on a bar or SG the differance is about 0.

cheers phil

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And what do you base that on, so you are saying that it is ok to use a shackle contrary to what it was designed to do.
I will explain once more, a shackle is designed to support a load on the "pin" and the centre of the "bow" or "D".
If you put a shackle on a recovery point where the pin hole is horizontal and the line of pull is not straight ahead, which in practise it usually never is. Then the shackle is pulled to the line of the loading and the pin jambs in the recovery point hole and the sling moves off centre in the bow.
The pin is subject to bending (reason they are sometimes tight to undo) and the bow is distorted causing the same problem.
Now do this often enough and one day you will embed a shackle body (minus the pin) into the back of someones head.
On the other hand if the recovery point hole is in the vertical axis then it doesn't matter which way it is loaded as it will automatically align itself with the line of pull/load, like it does on a crane hook.
It might pay you to look up the Riggers Guide on Google before you make statements, you may learn something, which is better than 0, Regards Frank.

its still a null and void answer as the shackle is rated for lifting not pulling/recovery. if the shackle is used for lifting then the line of pull is straight, its not that simple for recovery, there is never a dead straight line of recovery, so if the attaching point is horizontal and the pull is up or down, then yes the point/shackle may bend, but also if the attaching point is verticle and the pull is left or right, same thing, possible bend of the attaching point or shackle.
i do see what your getting at but i still reckon its not that critical.
most recoveries ive seen, either snatches or winching see the use of a 3.25t rated shackle used, now take into account the cars weight, the terrain, the friction of car and terrain and the inertia of the snatch..pretty sure the 3.25t shackle isnt the best one to use.

cheers phil

Quote:

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Originally Posted by discowhite

its still a null and void answer as the shackle is rated for lifting not pulling/recovery. if the shackle is used for lifting then the line of pull is straight, its not that simple for recovery, there is never a dead straight line of recovery, so if the attaching point is horizontal and the pull is up or down, then yes the point/shackle may bend, but also if the attaching point is verticle and the pull is left or right, same thing, possible bend of the attaching point or shackle.
i do see what your getting at but i still reckon its not that critical.
most recoveries ive seen, either snatches or winching see the use of a 3.25t rated shackle used, now take into account the cars weight, the terrain, the friction of car and terrain and the inertia of the snatch..pretty sure the 3.25t shackle isnt the best one to use.

cheers phil

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Quote: "its still a null and void answer as the shackle is rated for lifting not pulling/recovery"
Interesting, how does a rated shackle know whether it's lifting or pulling.
A shackle that is "rated" always has the SWL/WLL cast or stamped on the body and the pin is Always thicker than the body. Lifting/pulling no ****in difference.
You have everything arse up, the whole point is that a shackle mounted with it's pin VERTICAL is free to swing into alignment with the direction of pull in a recovery scenario.
A shackle with its pin mounted HORIZONTALLY is not free to do so.
Unless the anchor point is DIRECTLY OVERHEAD or DIRECTLY UNDERNEATH, not very likely.
In a snatching recovery loads are unknown and depend on weight, how deep bogged, whether any prep work around tyres is done, and how fast the snatching vehicle takes off and how much slack in the line. So working out loads in a snatch recovery is hit and miss at best. One thing for sure the WEAKEST point in a snatch recvery MUST BE the snatch strap.
But if you load a shackle the wrong way regardless of it's rating there is the likelyhood of the shackle being the WEAKEST link. If you think that's bull**** have a look at how many shackles have failed in snatch recoveries, Regards Frank.

how many have failed?

Because to be honest its not something I have heard of a lot, other than from yourself frank.

Not even on this forum and I have been here a few years..but all of a sudden feels like its getting posted ever second day.

I understand totally what your saying Frank in terms of the pin and the shackle being able to swing but its horses for course I guess because most of the recoverys I have witnessed have been on hills which would indeed have the pull on the shackle in the upward/downward manor...but that is because we dont have big mud bog holes around here.

I would be interested to know if you could actually make a steering guard with the holes in the way your suggesting and it still be strong to put up with the forces your going to put on it. i.e whether it would actually make any difference or not

I'm not weighing into the debate but all I can say is from the drawings you posted you must have some really good fabrication gear at home!!! :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dullbird

how many have failed?

Because to be honest its not something I have heard of a lot, other than from yourself frank.

Not even on this forum and I have been here a few years..but all of a sudden feels like its getting posted ever second day.

I understand totally what your saying Frank in terms of the pin and the shackle being able to swing but its horses for course I guess because most of the recoverys I have witnessed have been on hills which would indeed have the pull on the shackle in the upward/downward manor...but that is because we dont have big mud bog holes around here.

I would be interested to know if you could actually make a steering guard with the holes in the way your suggesting and it still be strong to put up with the forces your going to put on it. i.e whether it would actually make any difference or not

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I have seen a few myself, my Son's Stage 1 parked out in the yard has the impression of a shackle pin from a 3+ tonne SWL shackle, he was parked well away off to one side. The snatch/tow vehicle a Toyota troopy had the body of the shackle go through the back door and into the windscreen they were pulling from one side as there was no other alternative.
I've seen a few on U-Tube (shackles not towballs) and a few on other sites, enough for me as in 40 years of rigging I have never seen one break.

Quote: "witnessed have been on hills which would indeed have the pull on the shackle in the upward/downward manor".

If I understand you right you are saying that because the vehicles are on a hill and I assume you mean the same hill/slope then I don't see your reasoning. Both vehicles are one the same plane so the shackle is also, as I said in the previous post the only way the shackle would be pulled up or down, in relation to the vehicle would be if the rope was being pulled straight up or down, not possible.
I don't see any practical reason for having the recovery holes under the vehicle, you can't get to them without laying down, you can't get to them if your in a hole and the bullbar is sittting on the ground, the cable/snatch strap is prone to damage by the bottom or the B/Bar, esp. if it digs into the ground. A better solution is to have rated eye bolts (swivelling or not) through the front of the bar into the plated ends of the chassis rails, strong, safe , versatile, removable and you don't need to get under the car to fit the shackle and strap, Regards Frank.
P. S. Once a shackle has been damaged, i.e. the pin is hard to undo/do up it should be discarded (cut in half) the rated SWL/WLL then no longer applies.

mmmm I disagree with the same plane, not all hills are the same level when your pulling I agree I'm
not taking directly up or directly down but you don't always have a straight line pull even on a hill when you a pull on a vehicle over various terrain. if the towing vehicle moves up on terrain and of over a crest with in the terrain then you will have some upwards/downwards pull on the shackle... I have seen it happen with the recovery of my own vehicle

As I said early granted I have not seen it in the extremes your talking.

as for the practicality...I would like to have the swivel points on my bullbar. however if you cant get to the front points you go to the back ones., you shouldn't ideally be going out with only a recovery set on one end doing the examples your giving i.e bog holes.

Secondly if your going in to a bog hole and there is concern you may get bogged you should go in with a strap already attached! if you have any sense.

I'm also not sure of the legalities of fitting swivel points to the front of a bullbar (in NSW anyway) as I'm sure there is rules for modifying bullbars that have already have had the design approved. as well as I'm also not sure of the ADR's of placing things on your bullbar that are outside the line of the car or if they are considered (can't think of the right word) a protrusions I think something like that..not sure what the measurements are or if they would fall in this category.

Nothing is black and white..you feel the same way about Jate rings too :lol2:

P.s Frank have you got some links to the youtube video's I think video speaks louder than words I have done several searches on youtube after you saying there on there and come up with nothing. the best I have found is a broken spring shackle and one recovery where it just states that the tension point (doesn't say what) broke with the snatch strap and embedded its self in a tyre. if you got some video that you have seen can you post them up in here so others can see it might be that its simply not in the description so cant find it.

I have tried:
Shackle failure
recovery using Shackle which broke
broken shackle while recovering
bow shackle failure, break.
Shackle let go,
bow shackle let go

can't think of any others

The reason for recovery points mounted under the bar is mainly for ADR reasons.
If you mount as you say, even with a big eye bolt it's illegal as it is a protrusion.

Cheers phil

My thoughts are best setup would be the ability to use your in either vertically or horizontally

i.e.

If both cars are in the same plane and the connection point is the same height off the ground than yes shackle vertical

if both cars are on different plane say one stuck on a steep climb near the top of the hill and the other car is on a flat section at the top of the hill wouldn't the shackle be best horizontal??

In all the recoveries I have been involved with I have never seen the pin of a shackle not come out nor have I seen any recovery equipment fail.......have heard plenty of stories and I can only assume either the gear was faulty and:or the attachment point oh than there is the common dog **** that gone out the window

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dullbird

mmmm I disagree with the same plane, not all hills are the same level when your pulling I agree I'm
not taking directly up or directly down but you don't always have a straight line pull even on a hill when you a pull on a vehicle over various terrain. if the towing vehicle moves up on terrain and of over a crest with in the terrain then you will have some upwards/downwards pull on the shackle... I have seen it happen with the recovery of my own vehicle

As I said early granted I have not seen it in the extremes your talking.

as for the practicality...I would like to have the swivel points on my bullbar. however if you cant get to the front points you go to the back ones., you shouldn't ideally be going out with only a recovery set on one end doing the examples your giving i.e bog holes.

Secondly if your going in to a bog hole and there is concern you may get bogged you should go in with a strap already attached! if you have any sense.

I'm also not sure of the legalities of fitting swivel points to the front of a bullbar (in NSW anyway) as I'm sure there is rules for modifying bullbars that have already have had the design approved. as well as I'm also not sure of the ADR's of placing things on your bullbar that are outside the line of the car or if they are considered (can't think of the right word) a protrusions I think something like that..not sure what the measurements are or if they would fall in this category.

Nothing is black and white..you feel the same way about Jate rings too :lol2:

P.s Frank have you got some links to the youtube video's I think video speaks louder than words I have done several searches on youtube after you saying there on there and come up with nothing. the best I have found is a broken spring shackle and one recovery where it just states that the tension point (doesn't say what) broke with the snatch strap and embedded its self in a tyre. if you got some video that you have seen can you post them up in here so others can see it might be that its simply not in the description so cant find it.

I have tried:
Shackle failure
recovery using Shackle which broke
broken shackle while recovering
bow shackle failure, break.
Shackle let go,
bow shackle let go

can't think of any others

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This is very frustrating, I post on here trying to explain the FACTS re: abusing a shackle in a recovery situation by having the pin mounted horizontally and pulling sideways on the shackle, jambing the pin in the recovery point hole and the sling moving to the side of the bow.
Now I have people saying they know better than the published Facts, i.e. from reputable sources, TAFE, Dept. of Education, DLIR, these facts are there for all to see, "The Riggers Guide" or "A guide for Riggers" which are the Text books published by the government and available for all to read. If that's not good enough go to the designers of shackles and tell them they have got it wrong, now that off my chest I will try and explain again.

"mmmm I disagree with the same plane, not all hills are the same level when your pulling I agree I'm
not taking directly up or directly down but you don't always have a straight line pull even on a hill when you a pull on a vehicle over various terrain. if the towing vehicle moves up on terrain and of over a crest with in the terrain then you will have some upwards/downwards pull on the shackle... I have seen it happen with the recovery of my own vehicle"

A hill, 2 vehicles 100ft. apart one at the bottom one at the top, shackle attached horizontally underneath on recovery point discussed, now if the hill was steep enough the shackle would rotate till the sling/stap came up against the bottom of the bullbar, maybe a movement at the shackle of 1". Where the sling/strap will be damaged by the bottom of the bullbar and may be severed if the front wheels drop into a depression allowing the bullbar to damage/cut the tow rope.

"As I said early granted I have not seen it in the extremes your talking."

Neither have I and in all likelyhood it will never happen.

"as for the practicality...I would like to have the swivel points on my bullbar. however if you cant get to the front points you go to the back ones., you shouldn't ideally be going out with only a recovery set on one end doing the examples your giving i.e bog holes."

Who said I did.

"Secondly if your going in to a bog hole and there is concern you may get bogged you should go in with a strap already attached! if you have any sense."

If you have any sense you would go round or find an alternate route.

"I'm also not sure of the legalities of fitting swivel points to the front of a bullbar (in NSW anyway) as I'm sure there is rules for modifying bullbars that have already have had the design approved. as well as I'm also not sure of the ADR's of placing things on your bullbar that are outside the line of the car or if they are considered (can't think of the right word) a protrusions I think something like that..not sure what the measurements are or if they would fall in this category."

If you're not sure check with the Authourites, they publish documents setting out what is right and wrong, like for instance the "Riggers Guide" re: shackle use.
On my bullbar the furthest protrusions are the bar uprights and the fairlead rollers, a swivel eye bolt would be the least of protrusions.

"Nothing is black and white..you feel the same way about Jate rings too :lol2:"

Yes it is , Read the Riggers Guide.

"P.s Frank have you got some links to the youtube video's I think video speaks louder than words I have done several searches on youtube after you saying there on there and come up with nothing. the best I have found is a broken spring shackle and one recovery where it just states that the tension point (doesn't say what) broke with the snatch strap and embedded its self in a tyre. if you got some video that you have seen can you post them up in here so others can see it might be that its simply not in the description so cant find it."

I seen a few videos a few years back on other forums, 4x4 Action, Outerlimits etc., why would I keep links to them, do you have links to all the U-tube stuff you've seen.
It bothers me that you need proof, seems you think I'm lying, you are calling into question my Qualifications to make the observances I have made about the dangerous misuse of the humble shackle, what are your qualifications to question my honesty in this matter. My Qualifications include 40 years as a Rigger in the Mining/Construction/ Shipbuilding industries as a Class 1 Ticketed Rigger (good anywhere in the World), Mobile /Slewing Crane Ticket, Overhead Crane ticket, Dogmans Ticket, Scaffolders ticket, all earned on site and a 12 months Tafe course for Rigging.
I have tried hard to explain a Safety Issue re: the misuse of a shackle in recovery situations and all I get is"what ifs" or "buts", there are no ifs or buts you either use the gear correctlty or it will eventually fail and maybe injure someone and if you have an "if" or "But" left then I have wasted my time, Regards Frank.
That better.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/im...014/08/310.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/im...014/08/309.jpg
As you can see the damage done by a flying pin from a destroyed shackle during a snatch recovery, the alloy body is dented, the steel plate that the hinge is bolted to is bent and the crack in the hinge arm as well and that was only the pin from a 3.25T rated shackle, brand new. The body of the shackle ended up through the Troopy that was doing the snatch, no one hurt, shackle was mounted with pin horizontal and pulled off-centre.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/im...12/02/1413.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/im...12/02/1414.jpg

Heaps of room for an eyebolt.