Is my Rangie more environmentally proper than a Prius?

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Originally Posted by jakeslouw

No. Xstrata. And BHP started as an Australian venture, just like Anglo started as a South African venture. Makes no difference what they call themselves now.

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Absolutely it makes no difference because the investers come from everywhere these days.

But just like BHP started mining at Broken Hill, Biliton started independently in South Africa.

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Originally Posted by Lotz-A-Landies

Absolutely it makes no difference because the investers come from everywhere these days.

But just like BHP started mining at Broken Hill, Biliton started independently in South Africa.

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Don't think I agree: BHP Billiton here is completely controlled by head office in Australia, down to their IT strategy and purchasing.

I have access to the Group policy documents on IT procurement: come from Australia.

But it's a moot point: the point is that more and more minerals and metals are needed to feed this technology race, and while there are nice pie-in-the-sky sentiments by greenies, the fact is that the new technology will destroy the planet's resources much more than us keeping our old Landies mobile.

I think the best departure point is to pour more money into renewable FREE energy source research (wind, water, sun) than what is being poured into a futile search for a perpetual motion machine........

Xstrata are Swiss, aren't they ?

Anyway, we have the buggers (BHP, et al) back here trying to tear up the countries best farmland for bloody coal and trying to destroy the aquifers we all rely on for coal seam gas.

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Originally Posted by Dougal

Did you read that article?

It's an experimental run of 200 cars, they have a bank of lithium ion batteries, weigh 2 tons and there is no mention of range or refuelling.

BMW has hydrogen experimental cars too (govt grants probably too good to pass up). The half-life of your hydrogen fill is one day. Whether you use it or not, tomorrow you'll have half a tank left.

Lets crunch some numbers. 3 tanks each holding 8 pounds of hydrogen. That's 10,890g.
Each kg of hydrogen has 142MJ of energy available: Source here: Energy Density of Hydrogen

The total energy stored in the hydrogen tanks is 1546 MJ
This is equivalent to 39 litres of diesel.

39 litres of diesel in a modern vehicle the same size will get you over 800km. It will also sit there for years and not evaporate.
The range of the F-cell is 240miles (390km) in optimal conditions according to these journalists who ran out: How the Mercedes-Benz F-Cell left us both stranded and impressed

Total efficiency, around half of a conventional diesel car.

Of course there are conflicting details in those articles. One claims 8lb of fuel total, the other 8lb in each of 3 tanks.

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Funny this topic comes to my attention tonight.

I can confirm that it's 8lb per tank after my discussions and readings earlier.

Met up with a fellow visiting a friend from the states who works for BMW and was part of the test team for the H2 fuel vehicles in the US. Saw pics of a complete hydrogen plant that was built in the middle of the desert for the 2 year test time to run the cars. The tanks were an exchange system so it was planned that there would be no need for the soccer moms to have to fill. The "fuel station" would have tanks full, stored under refrigeration and you just swap out the tanks. You could run one or for longer trips there was a manifold system that allowed multiple tanks to be plugged in via a hose that was part of the tanks and just plugged in.

So there...

Look, I don't want to be negative, but driving with a bomb in my car is safer:

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_safety"]Hydrogen safety - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

So,
Battery/petrol alternatives are too heavy, too rare earth intensive, have a big "mileage" footprint during manufacture and potential issues with recycling
Hydrogen may be dangerous and even though it has a nice, clean zorst with water and heat coming out of the zorst pipe, making it seems to be another case of moving the emission from the zorst to the smoke stack
Battery power also just moves the emission from the zorst to the smoke stack
Maybe I will try my bike? Uh oh, too dangerous in Sydney, too hot in summer, and I'm too old for the hills
So its public transport then? Nah, doesn't work, too sporadic, unreliable and slow even if though I get subsidised concession rate @$2.50 for all day rides on ferry, bus and train.

That proves it doesn't it? I'll stick with my Landy. So should you. Maybe we should start a movement "flip the bird to every Pious that we see"? After all, we know the truth.

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Originally Posted by jakeslouw

Do you have any idea what goes into a hybrid or EV? Do a Google on RARE EARTH MINERALS. Google the uses for platinum and other metals.

Then come and have a look at my farm where foreign (AUSTRALIAN) mining companies are raping the bush not 1000m from my house for minerals.

Go and have a look at countries like Zimbabwe and the Congo where unchecked mining is destroying the ecology.

Catch a wake-up, mate.:mad:

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How much of that rare earth is being used in hybrid cars and how much in mobile phones and other battery powered devices?

You may be gilding the lily a little mate.

I'm no fan of mining, I do some work in that industry and I agree 100% that they are destroying some very nice tracts of land. To suggest that this is all due to hybrid cars is a bit silly though, don't you think?

The rape of the planet is exactly the reason we need to invest in these technologies, they will lead to a reduced demand for coal, oil, gas etc... At the moment its all about rare earth, but something will replace that technology, especially if the chinese keep ****ing the US off.

BTW - I don't need to google search for every piece of information I need, I still have books and journals (some are online) you know!

Cheers,

Adam

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Originally Posted by jakeslouw

Look, I don't want to be negative, but driving with a bomb in my car is safer:

Hydrogen safety - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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No it isn't. Please don't drive with a bomb in your car.

Can we all agree that hydrogen isn't a fuel, only an energy storage medium?

nope because thats the basic definition of a fuel...

if you want to go that way then LPG, LNG, diesel, ULP, premium, ethanol, av gas, avtur, jet a1-5, jp 5 jp8, and a whole stack of others are no longer fuel they are just an energy storage medium... just like batteries, capacitors, dams, compressed air tanks, the sun......