Conversion Cummins ISF 3.8 (or 2.8)

I have a Tunland ute with the Cummins 2.8 and it's a pity you couldn't just transplant the whole drivetrain into the vehicle of choice as it all works pretty well as is.
The biggest problem I can see is that the transfer case is LH (passengers side) drop for the front tailshaft as the front diff is offset to the left in the Tunland, the rear diff is central and both run a 3.9 :1 ratio
While the Getrag gearbox and Borg Warner transfer case along with the Dana diffs are different the basic architecture of the Tunland is the previous model Hilux with suspension and other components interchangeable.
The other difference between the Hilux and the Tunland is that the intercooler on the Tunland is quite large and front mounted mostly below the centre of the a/c condenser and the radiator.

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Originally Posted by oka374

I have a Tunland ute with the Cummins 2.8 and it's a pity you couldn't just transplant the whole drivetrain into the vehicle of choice as it all works pretty well as is.
The biggest problem I can see is that the transfer case is LH (passengers side) drop for the front tailshaft as the front diff is offset to the left in the Tunland, the rear diff is central and both run a 3.9 :1 ratio
While the Getrag gearbox and Borg Warner transfer case along with the Dana diffs are different the basic architecture of the Tunland is the previous model Hilux with suspension and other components interchangeable.
The other difference between the Hilux and the Tunland is that the intercooler on the Tunland is quite large and front mounted mostly below the centre of the a/c condenser and the radiator.

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Re the front axle, could you flip it over and reweld the suspension perches? Obviously swap the swivels to keep them on the same sides.

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Originally Posted by cjc_td5

Re the front axle, could you flip it over and reweld the suspension perches? Obviously swap the swivels to keep them on the same sides.

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The diff will run backwards.

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Originally Posted by Slunnie

The diff will run backwards.

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Thanks. Might have to get out the old lego technics to figure out how that works.... [emoji16]

So would be back to Cummins engine, Isuzu MSA gearbox & LT230 transfer...

It's not a solid axle, fully independent the same as the previous 3 litre hilux and probably similar to the current 2.8 model.

Just wondering if anyone has attempted the Cummins conversion?

Cheers,

Hugh

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Originally Posted by Hugh42732

Just wondering if anyone has attempted the Cummins conversion?

Cheers,

Hugh

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In Oz, not that i'm aware. On FB Jerry Hamill has a post that he is talking to Cummins Aust to bring in a crate engine. Initial figures are about 16k for a crate engine same as sold in the US. Quick Draw Brand (QDB) in the US sells bellhousings to match the R2.8 to a stumpy R380 adaptor, a regular R380, and a MT82. QDB also sells bellhousings for the Jeep derived NV3550 and NV4500 from the Dodge if you want bullet proof. Both QDB and Axis Industries have a 6L80 adaptor. Chris if you wanted the MSA/MXA box you would need an adaptor which i'm not aware anyone has tried. Be easier using the boxes mentioned above. All have adaptors for the LT230.

Dealing with Chris' posts using a Tunland donor, the Cummins techs could change the ECU coding to disable the immobiliser. Either spend a few days stripping out the redundant wires from the harness or sweet talk Cummins to supply the crate engine wiring harness (or sweet talk Cummins to supply the ECU and wiring harness from the crate package). The crate motor comes with an electronic throttle, maybe the Tunland one will carry over. Be silly to have a different throttle V range for the Tunland to the crate engine. There are 2 ECU's for the 2.8. CM2220 (pre 2013) and the later CM2350A (post 2013). RW Engineerings sells a CAN Bus module for the CM2220 to the Puma instrument cluster. When i reached out to him re the CM2250 (isde4.5) he wasn't sure if his CAN bus module would work with the Puma cluster.

The R2.8 is ideal for a Series conversion. Small (smaller than a 300 tdi), light (lighter than the Puma and 300tdi) and offers same output as a Puma engine and can be tune to a little over 400nm with little adverse effects on longevity. For a Defender you would want your $$ to be well spent and a ISF3.8 or isde4.5 is a better option, IMO.

I've landed on a cummins isde4.5 to hybrid NV4500 to LT230 using an QDB SAE#3 bellhousing and RW Engineering's GM to LT230 adaptor. Hybrid NV4500 is dodge HD input shaft with GM 32 spline output shaft. I can use Dodge 6bt spec clutch in the strongest NV4500 spec. All on-shelf parts. the only change to that is if i can use a isb5.9 bellhousing on the back of the isde4.5 in lieu of the SAE flywheel/bell housing set up (both are rear gear so only comes down to engine cover bolt pattern).

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Originally Posted by MLD

I've landed on a cummins isde4.5 to hybrid NV4500 to LT230 using an QDB SAE#3 bellhousing and RW Engineering's GM to LT230 adaptor. Hybrid NV4500 is dodge HD input shaft with GM 32 spline output shaft. I can use Dodge 6bt spec clutch in the strongest NV4500 spec. All on-shelf parts. the only change to that is if i can use a isb5.9 bellhousing on the back of the isde4.5 in lieu of the SAE flywheel/bell housing set up (both are rear gear so only comes down to engine cover bolt pattern).

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Fast forward a few months. The above combination has changed. Current thinking is isbe4.5 bolted to a ZF S5-42 bolted to LT230. The 24volt version of the isbe4.5 is found in the post 2006 DAF LF45 and DAF offer the ZF box as an option. I plan to use the SAE#3 FWH, FW, clutch from the LF45 truck. Subject to the starter sold in the 12V spec engine and its spacing, i'm led to believe the box with off the shelf FW/clutch will bolt up without any additional mods. The ZF has an air assisted clutch as a bonus. The ZF has similar ratios to the NV4500 and i don't need a hybrid build to get a strong box. Reece Myers in the UK is making Simon Connolly's original design ZF to LT adaptor. He sells the LT230 input gear splined to suit the ZF box in 1.003 and 0.9 HR ratios. Ashcroft list the 0.9 gear set if you are interested to read about it. This box and adaptor has been proven behind worked 6bts in the UK and there is support from the supplier in a market that is growing in the UK. its a better plan than matching different adaptor kits that may not be compatible. Consumables are off the shelf.

In theory the SAE#3 FWH on the isbe4.5 and ISF3.8 (& 2.8) should be the same diameter and depth. AFAIK the ISF3.8 was sold with a Chinese built version of the ZF (i think it was designated S5-420) so there may be FW and clutch kits ready to bolt in. If not, the DAF LF45 with ZF box might be compatible. The ISF2.8 industrial does come in SAE#3 but more common in SAE#4. Be mindful of that if you order the ISF2.8 with an industrial FWH.

Hi MLD,
Not sure we're you are with this, and that you have said your now looking at a Cummins ISB 4.5.

But I found this the other night.

Cummins R2.8 Defender kit TR4050 adapter kit For Land Rover

Cummins R2.8 which is the ISF2.8 to Tremec TR4050 gear box to LT230 transfer case. Seems to have most of the bits needed to bolt it into Defender.
I assume if it fits the the 2.8 it would fit the 3.8.

They also do R2.8 to Tremec 6 speed and R2.8 to Puma 6 speed.

Tony

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Originally Posted by TonyC

Hi MLD,
Not sure we're you are with this, and that you have said your now looking at a Cummins ISB 4.5.

But I found this the other night.

Cummins R2.8 Defender kit TR4050 adapter kit For Land Rover

Cummins R2.8 which is the ISF2.8 to Tremec TR4050 gear box to LT230 transfer case. Seems to have most of the bits needed to bolt it into Defender.
I assume if it fits the the 2.8 it would fit the 3.8.

They also do R2.8 to Tremec 6 speed and R2.8 to Puma 6 speed.

Tony

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Thanks Tony,

Quickdraw brands has expanded his offerings since my #59 post. in particular the MT82 and R380 adaptors. Given the output of the ISF2.8 which is on par with the Puma, there is no need for the NV4500 or the TR4050. Both are 3/4T truck boxes well over rated for the modest ISF2.8. The only reason to use the TR4050 would be its deep gearing and that can be replicated with the factory gearing of the MT82 x 1.221 high range in the Puma.

ISF 2.8 and ISF3.8 have different rear plate / flywheel housing arrangements. AFAIK the flywheel housings are not interchangeable. for eg, the starter on the ISF2.8 is on the left (looking at the rear of the engine) while the ISF3.8 is on the right. It would be preferable to have starter on left as it would make room for the exhaust which is constrained by the starter and the engine mount on the drivers (Aust) side. Sadly the ISF3.8, isbe3.9 and isde4.5 have the starter on the drivers side. Same with the 6bt but being a longer block, there is a gap for the exhaust between the starter and engine mount. It can be done (and is being done in the patrol with the isde4.5) just not as convenient.

If the ISF3.8 was on the cards, the easiest route is the SAE#3 flywheel housing and a quick draw bellhousing or a box like the ZF S5-42 that i mention for the 4.5. Since the 3.8 came in commercial trucks some with SAE#3 bellhousing boxes, there will be off the shelf flywheel and clutch kits. I still think a ISF3.8 with a HE221W turbo would be a nice little engine. The HE211W turbo that is factory offering on the ISF3.8 runs out of puff above 2000rpm. The HE221W with 5.5 cm sq exhaust will pull hard from 1200/1300 through to about 2400rpm, the larger 7cm sq exhaust will come on strong later in the rpm range (+/-1600) but would pull hard to 3,000. I think there is a 6cm sq version too. You would choose the turbo based on your gearing. ideally 1600-1700rpm at 100kph.

cheers, MLD