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Thread: Conversion Cummins ISF 3.8 (or 2.8)

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    Conversion Cummins ISF 3.8 (or 2.8)

    I want to start a thread for input and thoughts on a Cummins ISF 3.8 diesel conversion for a defender (I assume there will be common points for the Disco/RRC). The reason is IMO the Cummins is a solid engine good for more KMS than any modern non-truck engine will give. They are simple/basic for a common rail with ECU. The 4bd1T is incompatible for anything post 1994 (??) which excludes many vehicles and the 3.8 fills that hole.

    This is what I have learned so far.

    - in the ISF range there is a 2.8 and 3.8 4 pot.
    - meets Euro 4 emissions (if i read the emissions guidelines correct Euro IV to 2007, a hybrid standard from 2007 to 2013, Euro V from 2013). I take it that with some clever argument it would be suitable to 2013.
    - in Australia the 2.8 is found in Foton trucks and the 2.8 and 3.8 will be sold in Chinese made JAC trucks. Foton is imported by Western Star.
    - the 2.8 puts out 360 NM from 1200 rpm (same physical size as the 300 tdi)
    - the 3.8 in its top tune puts out 600 nm from 1800 rpm (most of that from 1300 rpm)
    - the 3.8 revs to 3600 rpm but will push into low 4's
    - Alibaba is selling the 3.8 dressed with harness and ecu for about USD7,000 + freight
    - any gearbox that bolts to the bd4 bolts to the 2.8 and 3.8 (suitable gearboxes ZF 8HP and one of the Alison auto (which not sure) for an auto; Aisin 6 speed manual from the Nissan Tundra which is an Aisin box).
    - bell housing bolt pattern is SAE12 (also saw it quoted as SAE#3, not sure the difference)
    - the bell housing adaptor to the engine is deeper than the bd4 therefore the shaft length for the 3.8 will be longer than the bd4 version - possible custom item until someone gets their groove on to mass produce.
    - Cummins sell a crate kit in the USA in the 2.8 as a re-power for the Wrangler. Adaptors are available for the Wrangler NV3550 manual. There are adaptors for the NV3550 to LT230 in the USA. Whether the NV3550 is strong enough for the 3.8 is a Q to be investigated.
    - ecu is standalone and is easily integrated into most vehicles. Reading the Wrangler conversion it was an easy integration.

    If you have any insight into the 3.8 (or 2.8 for those replacing/thinking of fitting the 300 tdi), suitable gearboxes to marry to the LT230, fit and performance I'd love to read about it. There are a lot of tied defenders floating around that are in need of more mumbo and not everyone wants an LS or a the headache of a modern non-truck engine.

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    Thanks Ill be watching this with interest.
    Does this mean the 3.2 Ranger hasn't worked out?

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    HA!
    I said it years ago, and no one listened. This ISF will be a great option for repowering a defender. I also believe there will be a good few of these engines with excess kilometers to burn once the foton falls apart around the drivetrain. I can't comment in a technical capaacity though. But being Cummins, and born of a crate motor that has been designed to be a world motor, there should be heaps of info out there to allow it to work in your application.

    Go for it Mark!
    -Mitch
    'El Burro' 2012 Defender 90.

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    The 2.8 motor would make an interesting project for a friends D1 (followed closely by mine if he got it to work!). What would the legalities be in swapping engines in a late model D1?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Toxic_Avenger View Post
    HA!
    I said it years ago, and no one listened.
    Haven't you become used to that yet, Mitch? I had that particular epiphany about twenty years ago.
    ​JayTee

    Nullus Anxietus

    ​Getting involved in discussions is the best way to learn.

    2000 D2 TD5 Auto: Tins
    1994 D1 300TDi Manual: Dave
    1980 SIII Petrol Tray: Doris
    OKApotamus #74
    Nanocom, D2 TD5 only.

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    ​JayTee

    Nullus Anxietus

    ​Getting involved in discussions is the best way to learn.

    2000 D2 TD5 Auto: Tins
    1994 D1 300TDi Manual: Dave
    1980 SIII Petrol Tray: Doris
    OKApotamus #74
    Nanocom, D2 TD5 only.

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    Yep, that looks like the one. How would you go legally with a later model engine in an older car?

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    Quote Originally Posted by cripesamighty View Post
    The 2.8 motor would make an interesting project for a friends D1 (followed closely by mine if he got it to work!). What would the legalities be in swapping engines in a late model D1?
    There is an interesting read here: Cummins in a defender - Page 13 - Defender Source

    they cover options for the 2.8 into the defender. The R380 (in the opinion of some on that post) will not hold up to the Cummins 2.8. The NV3550 (Wrangler gearbox) to LT230 was considered an easy route and uses the factory mounts. Should be plenty of seconds floating around. There are a few posts from the marketing manager from Cummins that explains the integration with the Wrangler instruments. It reads like the coding was universal to be easily integrated. I expect Sheldon (COR Conversions on F would be able to recommend a suitable gearbox that bolts up to both engine and TFC or make an adaptor for you. The bell housing is SAE#3 (i clarified that fact from my earlier post) and since Aisin supply Toyota and Nissan not for forget the isuzu MSA range there should be a variety of boxes that bolt up.

    As for legalities, my understanding of the law (i only scratched the surface deep enough for what I was looking into) is that you can bolt in a younger engine into an older chassis so long as you retain the emissions controls of the donor vehicle. If you are using a crate engine the emissions will be that of the crate engine and so long as the crate engine matches or exceeds the original vehicle you are good. I've ignored other engineering considerations like brakes and chassis but assume the D1 will meet engineering because the ISF2.8 has similar numbers to the Puma engine. it's not like you are taking a gigantic leap forward in power and speed from either the 300 tdi or the 3.9 V8. This is from the infrastructure website (light diesel engines only)

    Euro 4 adopted in ADR79/01 from 1/1/06 to 1/1/07
    ADR79/02 from 1/7/08 to 1/11/2013
    Euro 5 adopted in ADR79/03 (Core Euro 5) from 1/11/13 and ADR79/04 (Full Euro 5) from 1/11/16

    light reading: https://infrastructure.gov.au/roads/...o_2-Euro_6.pdf

    scroll to the bottom to find the version of ADR79 relevant to you. Happy reading.
    Third Edition Australian Design Rules





    To justify the expense i'd want the 3.8 tuned to 600nm. That is a step up in power from the Puma. The MT82 is rated to 500nm and 6th is prone to premature failure in the Ranger so it's a new/different gearbox if you went that way. The 3.8 comes in lesser tunes if wholesale changes to your driveline are unaffordable or not to your liking.

    Johntins - that's the engine. It also comes in their light truck models. In the JAC trucks they will be releasing models with an Alison auto. Not sure which variation Alison. As Mitch said won't be long before you can buy a wreck for nix. The Foton brand will put people off and only the knowledgable will appreciate the engine & running gear is worth the $$.

    Strangy - a story best told in private with alcohol.

    Mitch - you are wise beyond your years. The Cummins came to my attention a few years back but i dismissed it for 3 reasons: (i) I was too lazy to research the emissions and compliance with my MY10; (ii) at the time i couldn't find any chatter on the web of bolting one in as a conversion, that has changed mainly due to the USA now recognising the ISF under their emissions Regs; (iii) the engine was not available in Oz (in 3.8 guise) and bush servicing was an unknown. The later is probably an unfounded fear and most competent mechanics could get it running again. A terminal failure ends a holiday no matter what engine. Everything else is repairable with money and time.

    This post is really an opportunity to impart knowledge for someone wanting to find a modern version of the 4bd1T option for a defender but it's equally relevant to those looking at or wanting to upgrade from the 300 tdi for a RRC or D1.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cripesamighty View Post
    How would you go legally with a later model engine in an older car?
    From an ADR perspective it would be a lot easier than an older engine in a later car as it comes down to the emission rules for that year. If you are putting a newer engine in an older car, the newer engine should have better emission standards. The ADRs also stipulate a certain percentage you are allowed to increase the HP range.
    I am going to take a stab in the dark, but again if you had a V8 and were replacing it with a 6 or 4 cylinder should be easy to get it "passed" by the authorities
    The more difficult thing would be matching the electronics.
    One of the ways the hot rodders get around the electronics aspect is replacing the EFI systems with a carb.

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    What about a Merc motor? Can get kits for these and they make lots of power!

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