Dangers of using Hychill AC gas

just going to change a bit for you

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Originally Posted by Toxic_Avenger

So what do we have then, Given that we assume many risks when driving an automobile and have numerous flammable substances in an engine bay just waiting to ignite.
Is it a

• Risk adverse / litigation sensitive refrigerantion trade?
• An ill-informed refrigeration trade (benefits of hychill over others)?
• A predisposition to sticking to the status quo when it comes to using only OE specified refrigerant?
• An 'I know better than you, Mr HVAC' demanding customer?
• A disconnect between the cost of doing the refrigerant conversion properly, and the willingness of a customer to pay?
  And here's one for the conspiracy theorists amongst you-
• Protection of an industry through the preferred use of only registered licensed refrigerants, and the support of the big petrochemical companies (DuPont, Honeywell etc), at the expense of more environmentally sound molecules.

I'm all for Propane in cars. I'm all for low GWP refrigerants, and I'm also far from a greenie. But as it stands, there are lots of legal obstacles from doing this stuff yourself, limited original systems using propane as the refrigerant in automotive systems, and significant apprehension / adoption of this as a retrofit from the HVAC automotive trades (that I've seen). maybe it is a big chemical company conspiracy? [bigwhistle]

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and made it green and underlined it...

at the end of the day, the accounteneers get a big say in it. From what I remember when I did the look up and research for someone who wanted to do a conversion from an r12 system that had been converted to r134a to a hychill product (citing gas cost and he had to do some major repairs anyway) from an R134a system theres no major work to be done other than calculating up the new quantity to convert from R134A to one of the hychill gasses (30or 40 dont remember which but could have a dig round if there was interest)

My 24yo tractor had its 1st a/c re-gas today using the same R134A that was used initially. I don't know whether that's good or bad but the a/c works again after stopping a few days ago, found to be due to low pressure.

So, ummmm....whose game enough to mention bbq gas and aircon in the same sentence....

This is a very emotive issue and there is a lot of skewed evidence out there. I believe in the science and the proven use of hydrocarbons for decades over multi nationals pedaling their vested interests.

I've had Boral ER12 in my D2 4.6 for nine years without any issues or re-gassing. After an altercation with a member of our outback wildlife, I repaired the vehicle, installed a new condenser and drier, replaced all the "O" rings and seals and vacc'd the system (I've got refrigeration equipment). As I'd let my license lapse (retired), I had it checked and gassed by a professional frigie in Alice. The a/c system works far better and chills down a lot quicker in our outback 40++ heat.

My bro inlaw has had the same gas in his Hilux for even longer, also without issue or re-gassing.

If I had to think about it I feel far safer with a few hundred grams of hydrocarbon in my a/c system than up to 170 litres of premium petrol sitting in my fuel tanks.

Ask yourselves this, why is the US & the EU phasing out R134A.

If your into heavy reading here's a link on Hychill's site to the report prepared by Granherne for Boral (Esanty Refrigerants) for their ER12 hydrocarbon refrigerant for use in automobiles.
https://hychill.com.au/media/pages/i..._report_sm.pdf

A link to Hansard re Esanty
https://parlinfo.aph.gov.au/parlInfo...-09-29/0000%22

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Originally Posted by johnp38

So, ummmm....whose game enough to mention bbq gas and aircon in the same sentence....

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There's the thing. It's not BBQ gas. It's an approximately 60/40 mix of Propane (R290) and Iso-Butane (R600a). Straight propane will have pretty high head pressures and a greater chance of doing some pressure related damage.

Here is a PT Chart I knocked up a few years ago to try and illustrate this to a muppet who was insistent on putting "BBQ Gas" in his AC.
http://www.fnarfbargle.com/private/1...C2/ptchart.png
Y : Pressure in PSI. X : Temperature in C.

In this context OZ-12 is an approximately 60/40 blend of the 2 hydrocarbons (which is what Hychill is). It's a pretty close match for R12. When replacing R134a in a system reliant on pressures (like the old school suction pressure regulated variable displacement compressors) you need to up the propane component a bit or the evap will freeze. All the modern stuff seems to be controlled on evaporator temperature, so it seems to work fairly well.

So it's not just "BBQ" gas.

That PT chart is not much good for us fridgies,we need it to run a lot lower than 10 degrees C[bigwhistle]

You have actually done a better job than the Local TAFE that the boys did their Hydrocabon course at,they didn’t even have a PT chart for the commonly used Hydrocarbon refrigerants.
After a good few complaints from the students,they found one.

A capillery selection chart would have been good as well,but no luck there either[bigsad]

I guess this is what you are referring to, Brad:


Wholesale Refrigerant - Cheap R22 Freon, R22a, R410a, R12a, R134a Replacement (frostycool.com)

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HC-12a, also called ES-12a, OZ-12a, DURACOOL 12a^[1] and Hydrocarbon Blend B, is a "drop-in" replacement refrigerant for Freon-12 and to a lesser extent, R-134a.

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Originally Posted by scarry

That PT chart is not much good for us fridgies,we need it to run a lot lower than 10 degrees C[bigwhistle]

You have actually done a better job than the Local TAFE that the boys did their Hydrocabon course at,they didn’t even have a PT chart for the commonly used Hydrocarbon refrigerants.
After a good few complaints from the students,they found one.

A capillery selection chart would have been good as well,but no luck there either[bigsad]

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I generated those out of Refprop. It's easy enough to generate arbitrary mix charts and I'd be more than happy to sort an extended chart, but to be frank below about 20C it follows the R12 line pretty closely. It does make it easy to tweak the gas mix to suit the evaporator pressure, but it's pretty application specific.

As for capillary, I've been tweaking empirically because the behaviour in a cap tube is a bit different to the CFC/HFC. I have an interesting unit here with a double evap (for a vacuum distillation still). It's a 12/24V danfoss variable speed compressor which runs one conventional tube based evap at ~-5C and then a second flooded evap at ~-20C. That took a *lot* of tuning to get right and it is extremely condition specific, so I have to wait for it to properly pull down to temp for it to work right. I played initially with EEV's, but I can't buy an EEV with a small enough orifice to make it reliable. I have a selection here, but they're all suited more for A/C applications 1.6KW and up. That makes use in a 40W system problematic.

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Originally Posted by Old Farang

I guess this is what you are referring to, Brad:

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Sort of. Using the software I used to produce the pt for each refrigerant I used the OZ-12 blend as it was already built in and didn't have any significant additives. A lot of the blends mix in HFC refrigerants for various proprietary reasons. I just picked the one that was the closest to a pure HC mix that Hychill sell. That was produced pretty quickly to illustrate R290 having a 50% higher pressure at 60C to prevent some neanderthal doing something dumb. "Ugh, but it blows real cool dude".

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Originally Posted by BradC

I generated those out of Refprop. It's easy enough to generate arbitrary mix charts and I'd be more than happy to sort an extended chart, but to be frank below about 20C it follows the R12 line pretty closely. It does make it easy to tweak the gas mix to suit the evaporator pressure, but it's pretty application specific..

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Thinking more of R290,as that’s the one that is starting to appear in commercial cabinets.

I would probably look at R22 capillery chart,then adjust from experience.

Yes 40watts,no hope with a TX,the ones we commonly use go down to around 400 from memory,R134a.
Capillery is the go.

In fact,I can’t get a R22 2 ton AC TX with bleed anymore either,we have to use a 3 ton,and fiddle with it,which is a PITA.

Since Parker were bought by Emerson,they have dropped a lot of their range of TX valves,and unfortunately also compact suction line burnout driers,which is a nuisance,as no one else made or makes them in some sizes.

Bean counters at it no doubt.[bighmmm]