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Thread: Dangers of using Hychill AC gas

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by retromatic View Post
    Hi Guys,

    Firstly I am only sharing info that has been given to me by a professional in the game of AC re-gassing.

    I went there requesting to have my Puma Defender 130 2.4 re-gassed with Hychill after an engine replacement.

    They refused to use Hychill gas and showed me the video here Hychill Car Fire - YouTube . He said it was referred to in the industry as BBQ LPG.

    Even the mechanic that installed the new engine refused to use to use it and said to avoid it at all costs.

    R134a is the only gas to use I was told. Do not believe the hype, it is prohibited in QLD and apparently the owner of Hychill is an ex lawyer who has dodged everything that has been thrown at him.

    There was a cool room re-gassed with Hychill that went up in flames and killed a guy apparently.
    A quick google search for Hychill Fire brings these articles up:
    HyChill issues statement on factory fire - HVAC&R News
    Microsoft Word - Oct2012vasa_HCwhite_paper.doc
    Charges laid over fatal coolstore explosion - NZ Herald (Quote in that article "It said Mr Lovell's Red Watch crew responded to the callout without knowing Hychill Minus 50, which is 95 per cent propane, was used there as a refrigerant."

    I ask myself why the OEM's don't use it. My conclusion is simple, its dangerous, even in the smallest quantities, who wants something additional that could be potentially causing a fire running in their AC. Not me that is for sure. Any benefits would be outweighed by the risks.

    Hope it helps you guys or anyone for that matter,

    Damo
    ohhh crap....

    do you want to tell them about r290, r600 or 601a, 702, and thats not even the nasty stuff I mean r-764 should, if it already isnt, be outlawed under the Geneva convention cause I sure don't want it let out anywhere near me, R-50 is in the same boat but its flammable to boot and 784 is debilitating and potentially fatal to a fairly specific genetic group.

    the reason its not more commonly used is its storability, energy density and operating pressures, but I'd have to sit down and do the charting to confirm the specifics of it...
    Dave

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  2. #12
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    Just in practical terms I have had Hychil in my D2 for about 6 years without having to regas and it still works perfectly. I just did a trip to Qld with 32C temps and didn't miss a beat.

    Apparently the molecule size is greater than R134A so less leaks out and it requires a lower head pressure. It also was compatible with R134A lubricant..

    My understanding is that the charge volume was only 70CC AFAIR so unless you had a big accident where a spark was present in a confined space the bang would be small.

    However I rang the air-condition bloke who put it in and he no longer uses it so it looks like back to R134A.

    So I am leaving it in until the aircon doesn't work anymore.

    I understand that fridges have used flammable gas for 20 years and you don't hear of many kitchens going bang.
    Regards PhilipA

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhilipA View Post

    I understand that fridges have used flammable gas for 20 years and you don't hear of many kitchens going bang.
    Regards PhilipA
    They generally have a very small charge,around 100 grams,as an average.
    There is not much chance of a sudden large leak from a domestic refrigerator,compared with a vehicle in an accident as an example.
    Paul

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  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by rick130 View Post
    Oh, and FWIW the preferred method for disposing of HC's from refrig/Air con systems is run the gas through a burner ring and burn it off!

    And another FWIW, I have a certificate in the safe handling, use and disposal of hydrocarbons in refrigeration and air conditioning systems. Dangers of using Hychill AC gas
    At the other extreme I'm certified to use CO2, too. Dangers of using Hychill AC gas
    Your car aircon blokes would blanch if they saw the pressures that runs at, (up to 90bar/1300psi) and probably claim it was lethal at that, too. Dangers of using Hychill AC gas
    as a diesel car guy/plant guy, I look at those numbers and go...... yeah, thats way too low hows that pressure ment to keep the hydraulic lift going off of the accumulator?

    on a side note, can you recall which of the refrigerants had such ridiculously low pressures it was feasible for the suction side to pull air in through an uncapped fill valve or seal?
    Dave

    "In a Landrover the other vehicle is your crumple zone."

    For spelling call Rogets, for mechanicing call me.

    Fozzy, 2.25D SIII Ex DCA Ute
    Tdi autoManual d1 (gave it to the Mupion)
    Archaeoptersix 1990 6x6 dual cab(This things staying)


    If you've benefited from one or more of my posts please remember, your taxes paid for my skill sets, I'm just trying to make sure you get your monies worth.
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  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blknight.aus View Post

    on a side note, can you recall which of the refrigerants had such ridiculously low pressures it was feasible for the suction side to pull air in through an uncapped fill valve or seal?
    Any R12 or R134a system running down at SST of -25 or lower will at times operate in a vacuum.
    This is normal freezer temperatures.

    We had freeze driers operating at -55 degrees SST,running on a vacuum on R404a.
    These systems also used economisers or the compressers would overheat.

    Any refrigerant will run in a vacuum if you get the temperature low enough.
    Paul

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    '56 S1,been in the family since...'56
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  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by scarry View Post
    Any R12 or R134a system running down at SST of -25 or lower will at times operate in a vacuum.
    This is normal freezer temperatures.

    We had freeze driers operating at -55 degrees SST,running on a vacuum on R404a.
    These systems also used economisers or the compressers would overheat.

    Any refrigerant will run in a vacuum if you get the temperature low enough.
    More specifically I recall there being one that was operating near vacuum at more modest temps... an old guy was telling us on one of my Ac courses about it and how they had issues with air always getting into the system with the eventual leak being the test port seal, which was fine while it had the test gauge on it as the gauge was sealing on the body of the port but once capped was letting air in past the threads and perished seal in the cap.
    Dave

    "In a Landrover the other vehicle is your crumple zone."

    For spelling call Rogets, for mechanicing call me.

    Fozzy, 2.25D SIII Ex DCA Ute
    Tdi autoManual d1 (gave it to the Mupion)
    Archaeoptersix 1990 6x6 dual cab(This things staying)


    If you've benefited from one or more of my posts please remember, your taxes paid for my skill sets, I'm just trying to make sure you get your monies worth.
    If you think you're in front on the deal, pay it forwards.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blknight.aus View Post
    as a diesel car guy/plant guy, I look at those numbers and go...... yeah, thats way too low hows that pressure ment to keep the hydraulic lift going off of the accumulator?

    on a side note, can you recall which of the refrigerants had such ridiculously low pressures it was feasible for the suction side to pull air in through an uncapped fill valve or seal?
    Quote Originally Posted by scarry View Post
    Any R12 or R134a system running down at SST of -25 or lower will at times operate in a vacuum.
    This is normal freezer temperatures.

    We had freeze driers operating at -55 degrees SST,running on a vacuum on R404a.
    These systems also used economisers or the compressers would overheat.

    Any refrigerant will run in a vacuum if you get the temperature low enough.
    Yep, I realise 1300psi is only just mid range in hydraulics, but when you see it in refrigeration you take a few steps back. Dangers of using Hychill AC gas

    Vacuum =R11 in chillers.
    Always ran on a vacuum.

    You'd have worked on those suckers Paul.

    I've worked on larger R12 freezer room systems that ran on a couple of Inches vacuum.
    Waay back in the mists of time.
    That's where a mechanical open drive seal is superior to a bellows seal.

    I did have a look at a big R11 centrifugal chiller once in a hospital around 1993 that needed a purge but deferred to the chiller tech that was due back from leave the following week.
    Purging it was all theory to me them! And still is! Dangers of using Hychill AC gas

  8. #18
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    Back in the late Sixties/early Seventies, where I worked we had cryogenic systems to bring the operating temperatures of satellite comms low noise receivers down to near absolute zero, about 5-6 deg K (-266/267 deg C). The reason being that at those temperatures, there is very little thermal (electrical) noise generated in the electronics.

    Those compressors probably used R134. I remember we had bottles of refrigerant on site.
    Ron B.
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  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by p38arover View Post
    Back in the late Sixties/early Seventies, where I worked we had cryogenic systems to bring the operating temperatures of satellite comms low noise receivers down to near absolute zero, about 5-6 deg K (-266/267 deg C). The reason being that at those temperatures, there is very little thermal (electrical) noise generated in the electronics.

    Those compressors probably used R134. I remember we had bottles of refrigerant on site.
    Definitely not R134a Ron, it only became commercially available in the 90's.
    And at low suction temps it isn't very stable, good old R12 was a lot better getting near 0 gauge pressure.
    I'd be wildly guessing what may have been the refrigerant/s.

    Ultra low temps are only achieved with cascade systems, where the suction side of one stage cools the discharge of the lower temp stage.
    The scientific cases at the CSIRO when I worked at Black Mountain had some funky refrigerants, can't recall off the top of my head, but they ran two stages to get to -70°C.
    I can't imagine how many stages you'd need to get near absolute 0. Dangers of using Hychill AC gas
    The bloke that serviced them flew all over Australia as well as OS looking after them, they are a very specialised branch of the trade.

    A lot of the current supermarket systems are cascades, but only so we can use CO2 on the LT side of the system.
    The MT cases are R134a and the suction side of that system runs through a heat exchanger to cool the CO2 system.

  10. #20
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    Rick, you are right. On reflection, I think it was R12.

    Ours were serviced by our normal plant guys who looked after the diesel alternators, the air con, site electrical, and the hydraulics that drove the antenna (at Moree) or the electric motors on other sites. (These blokes had previously worked PNG or the Pacific Islands so were multi-skilled - or ex-Navy, again multi-skilled.)

    As you can imagine, the cooled receivers were in a Dewar with an almost perfect vacuum around them.
    Ron B.
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