Thread: Dangers of using Hychill AC gas

Originally Posted by Eevo

i hope they never put LPG or other flammable liquids (like petrol) in cars.

Or Bic disposable lighters!

DL

Originally Posted by rick130

Yep, I realise 1300psi is only just mid range in hydraulics, but when you see it in refrigeration you take a few steps back.

Vacuum =R11 in chillers.
Always ran on a vacuum.

You'd have worked on those suckers Paul.

I've worked on larger R12 freezer room systems that ran on a couple of Inches vacuum.
Waay back in the mists of time.
That's where a mechanical open drive seal is superior to a bellows seal.

I did have a look at a big R11 centrifugal chiller once in a hospital around 1993 that needed a purge but deferred to the chiller tech that was due back from leave the following week.
Purging it was all theory to me them! And still is!

Geez,Rick,how did I forget, its been years since working on those, bursting discs, purge pumps, all a PITA.
I hate anything that operates on a vacuum.From memory we used to pressure test at 15 PSI,or maybe 20,cant remember.
The only good thing about R11 was it was a great cleaner
Haven't worked with R11 since the 80's,used to come in 200L drums, bloody heavy bastards.


To get to -80 in the old days, we used R12,with the Temprite of the r12 system, being the condenser for the second stage, operating on R502.
Most around here were manufactured by Lindner and May.
Possibly what Ron is talking about.

The late model scientific cabinets that operate at -80 degrees use single stage systems with a cocktail of the latest generation refrigerants.
I will have to dig out a pic of the tag I have from one.

Originally Posted by Blknight.aus

More specifically I recall there being one that was operating near vacuum at more modest temps... an old guy was telling us on one of my Ac courses about it and how they had issues with air always getting into the system with the eventual leak being the test port seal, which was fine while it had the test gauge on it as the gauge was sealing on the body of the port but once capped was letting air in past the threads and perished seal in the cap.

Probably R11,but it was only generally used in chillers to chill water for chilled water reticulation systems.

We had some systems at the Gladstone smelter,or it could have been Boyne island, which cooled the cabins of the cranes above the tanks full of molten aluminium, and from my vague memory, they also ran very low pressures, or just into a vacuum.
The had Bock compressors,and were manufactured in Europe,and ran on some weird refrigerant can't remember what type.
The refrigerant was only available special order from BOC.

This was in the early 80's.

Originally Posted by scarry

Geez,Rick,how did I forget, its been years since working on those, bursting discs, purge pumps, all a PITA.
I hate anything that operates on a vacuum.From memory we used to pressure test at 15 PSI,or maybe 20,cant remember.
The only good thing about R11 was it was a great cleaner
Haven't worked with R11 since the 80's,used to come in 200L drums, bloody heavy bastards.


To get to -80 in the old days, we used R12,with the Temprite of the r12 system, being the condenser for the second stage, operating on R502.
Most around here were manufactured by Lindner and May.
Possibly what Ron is talking about.

The late model scientific cabinets that operate at -80 degrees use single stage systems with a cocktail of the latest generation refrigerants.
I will have to dig out a pic of the tag I have from one.

Yep, the scientific cases have weird arse refrigerants and Scoop would take then to Sydney if they needed to be opened, he did explain the procedure which took several days but can't recall atm.
He was at retiring age (and an ex York or Trane tech) and trying to transition out but had no one at that stage to take over.

Originally Posted by scarry

Probably R11,but it was only generally used in chillers to chill water for chilled water reticulation systems.

We had some systems at the Gladstone smelter,or it could have been Boyne island, which cooled the cabins of the cranes above the tanks full of molten aluminium, and from my vague memory, they also ran very low pressures, or just into a vacuum.
The had Bock compressors,and were manufactured in Europe,and ran on some weird refrigerant can't remember what type.
The refrigerant was only available special order from BOC.

This was in the early 80's.

I was still in school I think, dad's company had to service one or two crane cab coolers and it was for that time expensive stuff.

We actually made a spot cooler for the operator at Containers Packaging in the mid/late 80's but it sat on the roof of the factory so well away from any heat. It was a total loss system, just pulled ambient air in, chilled it wirh a single duct straight onto the bloke pouring aluminium.
They made the little deodorant cans, etc

So I contacted Hychill regarding what they recommend in the Puma Defender 2009 as AC gas their reply was this:

"Thank you for your inquiry.


The right replacement for R134a in car AC systems is Minus30.


Minus30 is a flammable gas, similar to LPG or the cooking gas at home and as such needs to be handled with due car and safety precautions. Having said that, the quantity used in typical systems is quite small and any chance of the fire is mitigated by that and by ensuring the system is in a good, sealed condition. It should always be remembered that R134a systems (like all others) contain oil, making the mix a flammable one as well! Many technical studies as well as empirical data over the years have firmly confirmed that hydrocarbon refrigerants are safe and very effective refrigerant alternative when properly used and cared for. They are nowadays used as a mainstay refrigerant in domestic fridges and freezers, supermarket display cabinets, domestic Ac systems and many other applications."

No where do they mention anything about reduced barrier hose as below even though they have an article on their website to cover themselves.

Then I forwarded that to the guy who re-gassed it with R134a and would not use Hychill

His response was this:

"It’s very interesting, It is a great refrigerant but the fact it leaks out of the reduced barrier hose is another down fall. What happens when you have a crash? Your fridge doesn’t do 6o+km/h."

I then googled
reduced barrier hose

Which Lead me to this
HyChill - Important: “Reduced-Barrier” Suction Hose Leakage

In Summary

Some reduced-barrier low side suction hoses can present a leakage problem. Whether you use HyChill or R-134a, we recommend using “full barrier" hoses. Our research indicates that traditional “full barrier" hose is significantly superior to “reduced barrier” (or flexible “thin walled veneer") hose that appeared in the market in recent times. Compared to “full barrier” hoses, reduced-barrier hoses generally have a shorter lifespan, break easily and are more likely to leak due to wear, vibration, extreme conditions and crimping irregularities. More importantly, some types of “reduced barrier” hose can leak the majority of a hydrocarbon charge within weeks.

This leads me to think its not safe unless these hoses are changed and then still if you are in a high impact crash could cause an explosion.

At the end of the day, I'm just providing info. What people do with that info it entirely up to them. I will stick by what the OEM's use in this case R134a. If it doesn't get as cold as a result so be it.

Originally Posted by retromatic

Hi Guys,

Firstly I am only sharing info that has been given to me by a professional in the game of AC re-gassing.

I went there requesting to have my Puma Defender 130 2.4 re-gassed with Hychill after an engine replacement.

They refused to use Hychill gas and showed me the video here Hychill Car Fire - YouTube . He said it was referred to in the industry as BBQ LPG.

Even the mechanic that installed the new engine refused to use to use it and said to avoid it at all costs.

R134a is the only gas to use I was told. Do not believe the hype, it is prohibited in QLD and apparently the owner of Hychill is an ex lawyer who has dodged everything that has been thrown at him.

There was a cool room re-gassed with Hychill that went up in flames and killed a guy apparently.
A quick google search for Hychill Fire brings these articles up:
HyChill issues statement on factory fire - HVAC&R News
Microsoft Word - Oct2012vasa_HCwhite_paper.doc
Charges laid over fatal coolstore explosion - NZ Herald (Quote in that article "It said Mr Lovell's Red Watch crew responded to the callout without knowing Hychill Minus 50, which is 95 per cent propane, was used there as a refrigerant."

I ask myself why the OEM's don't use it. My conclusion is simple, its dangerous, even in the smallest quantities, who wants something additional that could be potentially causing a fire running in their AC. Not me that is for sure. Any benefits would be outweighed by the risks.

Hope it helps you guys or anyone for that matter,

Damo

The issue with hychill is that it very well may be a good refrigerant, but the original designer of the system (LR) did not design it for this use. So by that fact alone, it is not the right replacement refrigerant. You may be able to make it work with much effort, and many dollars, but is it really worth it for the relatively small cost of using the right gas? Example: We could fill our engines with a 60 weight mineral oil, and it may work, but it's not the right oil for most applications.

As I mentioned, the average home handyman (without a refrigeration handling license) is by law not qualified to legally work on that SYSTEM - irrespective of what gas goes into it (restricted purchase or not).
As far as marketing goes, Hychill may have a very good product, but in the wrong application, a HVAC/refrigeration technician will more often than not stick to the prescribed refrigerant for that system- and the merits of Hychill as a product in isolation is therefore null and void. It's no use marketing the benefits of the product to the end user, the real marketing (and economic benefits- IF they even exist) need to be sold to the HVAC guys. And in my experience 9-5 this is generally not too well accepted. Most of what I've heard of Hychill is user-driven, NOT tradesperson driven.
An example of this latter point is seen in the marketing of pharmaceuticals- Pfizer, Bayer, Roche et al do not sell the drugs to the users, they are approaching the doctors direct to Prescribe based on the ailment (ie the application).

Originally Posted by retromatic

So I contacted Hychill regarding what they recommend in the Puma Defender 2009 as AC gas their reply was this:

"Thank you for your inquiry.


The right replacement for R134a in car AC systems is Minus30.


Minus30 is a flammable gas, similar to LPG or the cooking gas at home and as such needs to be handled with due car and safety precautions. Having said that, the quantity used in typical systems is quite small and any chance of the fire is mitigated by that and by ensuring the system is in a good, sealed condition. It should always be remembered that R134a systems (like all others) contain oil, making the mix a flammable one as well! Many technical studies as well as empirical data over the years have firmly confirmed that hydrocarbon refrigerants are safe and very effective refrigerant alternative when properly used and cared for. They are nowadays used as a mainstay refrigerant in domestic fridges and freezers, supermarket display cabinets, domestic Ac systems and many other applications."

No where do they mention anything about reduced barrier hose as below even though they have an article on their website to cover themselves.

Then I forwarded that to the guy who re-gassed it with R134a and would not use Hychill

His response was this:

"It’s very interesting, It is a great refrigerant but the fact it leaks out of the reduced barrier hose is another down fall. What happens when you have a crash? Your fridge doesn’t do 6o+km/h."

I then googled
reduced barrier hose

Which Lead me to this
HyChill - Important: “Reduced-Barrier” Suction Hose Leakage

In Summary

Some reduced-barrier low side suction hoses can present a leakage problem. Whether you use HyChill or R-134a, we recommend using “full barrier" hoses. Our research indicates that traditional “full barrier" hose is significantly superior to “reduced barrier” (or flexible “thin walled veneer") hose that appeared in the market in recent times. Compared to “full barrier” hoses, reduced-barrier hoses generally have a shorter lifespan, break easily and are more likely to leak due to wear, vibration, extreme conditions and crimping irregularities. More importantly, some types of “reduced barrier” hose can leak the majority of a hydrocarbon charge within weeks.

This leads me to think its not safe unless these hoses are changed and then still if you are in a high impact crash could cause an explosion.

At the end of the day, I'm just providing info. What people do with that info it entirely up to them. I will stick by what the OEM's use in this case R134a. If it doesn't get as cold as a result so be it.

it didnt get mentioned, most likely because to the best of my knowledge the ford doesnt run them, and this... (scuse underlining to highlight the good bit)

Originally Posted by retromatic

This leads me to think its not safe unless these hoses are changed and then still if you are in a high impact crash could cause an explosion.

Ignoring the simplicty of None of the refrigerants are explosive and barely meet the requirements for a good conflagration the gas in the AC system is still amongst the least ofyour worries.

Ever wondered what happens to the fuel in a common rail if you fracture one of the HP components inside a hot engine bay near say a source that hot enough to light off the result? Or say the power steering being sprayed back onto the exhaust? I'm willing to casually bet that the energy content of the contents of either one of those systems is higher than the total net energy content and just as likely to present itself in an ignitable fashion as straight up propane, butane, any mix thereof or any of the hychill products. And lets be really honest about it, guys with the newer petrol engines also have petrol present under pressure and woe betide anyone who has LPG fumigation on a diesel because they'll have easily as much LPG present in the engine bay in that system as you need hychill in pretty much any landrover AC system...

ohhhh,,

what about those poor sods on dual fuel, LPG And petrol, How are their cars not just spontaneously combustloading left right and centre whenever anyone so much as scritches the fuel systems in an accident?