Seat belts

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Originally Posted by cookiesa

SERIOUSLY.

The difference will be between bad internal injuries and them scraping you off of either what you hit or the dash.. floor.. roof.

Agreed 3 or better 4 point are much better, but a 2 point will save your live in minor impacts which could very well have otherwised killed you.

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This thread has been discussed previously, it is rarely ever better to be thrown from a vehicle.

It is probably better for all of your body to hit the dash/firewall at the same time/rate than have your neck broken and skull cracked open by the steering column. (without seat belts drivers got rib and sternal fractures, but the head rarely hit the steering wheel).
2 point harnesses were common in the middle of rear seats, they are rarely still fitted.

I have been in the Trauma Room on many occasions when rear middle seat passengers (particularly children) have been admitted with life threatening injuries when the rest of the passengers walked away or had only minor injuries.

I would never fit a 2 point harness.

The cost of a 3/4/5 point harness it not all that much more than a 2 point one.

Just my opinion, having seen the results over 30 years.

Diana

Addit: lap belts carry 3 times more risk of injury than do 3 point harnesses. http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/...hild_seat.aspx

While a three point harness is better than a two point - and four point better again (hand up those who have four point harness in all seats in their car?), any seat belt is far better than none.

It might be worth remembering that the initial data that proved the value of seat belts came from data collected by the Snowy Mountains Authority (mostly in Series 1 Landrovers) in the 1950s. And this data showed that seat belts reduced fatalities from regular occurrences to zero (provided they were worn, and not wearing was made a sacking offence) - all, I believe, with two point belts. (Not inertial reel either!)

John

This is an interesting read about fitting of seatbelts and additional seating.

Department of Transport and Regional Services Vehicle Safety Bulletin 05 b

Addit: Page 11 VSB 05b & Australian Standard 2596
"All outboard seating positions must be fitted with lap sash seat belts except:
• where there is no permanent structure, other than the seat, in the shaded area shown in
Figure 8; or
• where the seat is designed to provide adjustment for conversion of occupant space to
luggage or goods space, and such seating positions are not in the first or second row of
seats."

Figure 8 (measurements in mm - Cat 2 <38Kg Cat 3 <26 Kg )
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/im...007/11/256.jpg

Diana

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Originally Posted by JDNSW

It might be worth remembering that the initial data that proved the value of seat belts came from data collected by the Snowy Mountains Authority (mostly in Series 1 Landrovers) in the 1950s. And this data showed that seat belts reduced fatalities from regular occurrences to zero (provided they were worn, and not wearing was made a sacking offence) - all, I believe, with two point belts. (Not inertial reel either!)

John

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John

Weren't the statistics affected by an extraneous variable where the brakes on the SMA Land Rovers were modified at the same time, so it's difficult to extract the effect of the seatbelts from the effect of the brake modification?

Diana

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Originally Posted by Lotz-A-Landies

John

Weren't the statistics affected by an extraneous variable where the brakes on the SMA Land Rovers were modified at the same time, so it's difficult to extract the effect of the seatbelts from the effect of the brake modification?

Diana

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I have never seen that suggested before - certainly brake modifications were made, but the telling point was that the accident rate and type of accident did not change materially, but the number of deaths did. I seem to remember that after the introduction of seat belts there was only one death, and in that case the casualty was not wearing a seat belt.

The data was sufficient to lead first Victoria, then successive state governments to legislate to make compulsory (successively) seat belt anchorages, front seat belts, compulsory wearing, seat belts in all positions. This all happened before ADRs existed.

I might comment that I have had, and worn, seat belts in all my cars since 1962, when they were very rare.

(This was the result of the publicity given to the SMA data around 1960, with consequent availability of seat belts, and an accident where an uncle of mine collapsed from heat exhaustion in heavy traffic and hit a pole, probably at less than 20mph. He suffered severe facial injuries on the steering wheel, his centre passenger facial injuries from the dashboard, and his LH passenger suffered facial injuries and a broken knee. Although none were life threatening, it was clear at the time that seat belts would have prevented any injuries, and led to a number of family members fitting belts - albeit to a chorus of derision and snide comments!)

John

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Originally Posted by JDNSW

- albeit to a chorus of derision and snide comments!)

John

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John - I know that comment, "seat belts are only so that the ambulance officers don't have to look for the bodies"

Diana

In the situation under discussion, there is the difficulty of fitting an ADR-compliant seatbelt to a Series Land Rover. Where a hardtop is fitted there is no difficulty - attach the shoulder strap to the hardtop. With a softop or no roof, there is the difficulty of where the shoulder fitment should go. The sample picture shows one with a bracket to mount to the top of the rear tub. Provided there is an engineer happy with the design of the bracket, the fitment should be OK, as I understand the ADRs. Bear in mind that the taller seat back ("deluxe" seat) is for use with 3-point seatbelts.

I have an unused (for the moment) tub with a bracket fitted to the sides. Unfortunately the tub is a military FFR which is quite different in detail to a civilian tub and the brackets make use of the specialised fittings. I also have a roll bar (unfitted) with mounting points. Apart from these options it's hard to say what sort of 3-point seatbelt attachments in a Series LR would be potentially compliant.

Just as an aside - most (if not all) Series 2as were produced before ADRs existed. As such, does the anchorage have to be engineered? It could well have been fitted before such a requirement existed.

I know, for example, when I bought a Series 1 in 1962 it had seat belts fitted, plus anchorages, none of which were mandated by ADRs or engineering approved. This could still be in use, and as far as I can see there is no requirement for any approval for this. (same applied to the Series 2 I bought in 1964). The 2a I bought in 1966 I fitted seat belts to, and again, neither the anchorages nor the seat belts required or had any approvals - simply followed the suggestions for fitting that came with them.

John

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Originally Posted by scrambler

With a softop or no roof, there is the difficulty of where the shoulder fitment should go. The sample picture shows one with a bracket to mount to the top of the rear tub. Provided there is an engineer happy with the design of the bracket, the fitment should be OK, as I understand the ADRs. Bear in mind that the taller seat back ("deluxe" seat) is for use with 3-point seatbelts.

I have ... I also have a roll bar (unfitted) with mounting points. Apart from these options it's hard to say what sort of 3-point seatbelt attachments in a Series LR would be potentially compliant.

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Originality or not, I like the idea of using roll-over-protection for the shoulder connection of a seatbelt and also for the relative amount of protection it gives in a roll over (as long as it is connected to the chassis in some way)

I have also thought of using an after-market seat which have the holes for the shoulder straps of a 4 or 5 point harness. For show and shine events, after arriving I would remove the after-market seats and harness and re-fit the original series seats for the judging and reverse the deal for the drive home.

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Originally Posted by JDNSW

Just as an aside - most (if not all) Series 2as were produced before ADRs existed.

The 2a I bought in 1966 I fitted seat belts to, and again, neither the anchorages nor the seat belts required or had any approvals - simply followed the suggestions for fitting that came with them. John

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The Series 3 came in around the same time as the advent of ADRs however seatbelts were fitted as standard equipment for many of the late 2As.

If your series vehicle didn't have them originally you are not required to fit seat belts for registration. At initial registration after restoration it is possible that the inspector would require an engineering certification of non-standard fittings. However if you use the same ankorages as used on a late S2a, an S3 or stage 1 or even a County/Defender they are already approved. Seat belt ankorages are therefore readily available at the wreckers.

However you are not allowed to fit second hand belts.

Diana