Where to put a winch

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1st August 2007, 07:23 PM
camel_landy

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveS3

Hence winch extension straps where invented - the equivalent 20m ones are about 1/10th of the weight of regular cable and 1/3rd of the size.

I know which one i'd prefer to drag up the hill ;)

That's what winch b1tches are for... :wasntme:

M
1st August 2007, 07:38 PM
DaveS3

Quote:

Originally Posted by camel_landy

That's what winch b1tches are for... :wasntme:

M

Yep - trust me i know how to bitch real good:D
Done plenty of that, now I'll just drive and let someone else do that job :D
1st August 2007, 08:57 PM
mcrover

Quote:

Originally Posted by MT

Have used Tirfors for the last 20 years in the Army - recovery and on engineering tasks (we even use them to raise and lower bridges). Have never seen a tirfor cable snap - sheer pin goes first as it has rated SWL lower than the cable (of course, you knew that right?)

Of course, that is assuming that you keep the cable serviced and free of dirt and rust - incidentally, easier to do with a tirfor cable that you can keep clean far more easily than a cable wound around a drum on the front of your truck!

The other things about the tirfor are:

a. as long as you are alive and ambulatory it will work. Handy if your vehicle is rooted (ie submarine) and batteries have expired (elec winch ) or motor won't start (hydraulic winch).

b. you put it in the car when you are going somewhere that you will need it. The rest of the time it lives in the shed. You carry the other winches around in your vehicle 24 /7 - more weight / payload = more fuel used.

c. It is easier to service a tirfor - helped if nothing else by the fact that it does not go under water every time you ford a creek, unlike winches permanently mounted on your bull bar.

IMHO, unless you are going in a lot of 'extreme' competitions, the business case for elec or hydraulic does not add up.

Tell that to the bloke that slipped his car off the side of the road on Mt Stirling about 8 years ago while winching it back onto the road with a Tirfor and when the cable went as the Patrol was being pulled from the front, back slid out and slackened the cable and then went backward down the hill, snapped the cable tight and took half his leg with it when it broke.

Good artical in the Mansfield courier if anyone wants to look it up, I know one of the ambo's that went to the incident.

Im not saying they dont have their uses and any winch has to be used properly but I would prefer that in most cases I will not be standing next to the cable while winching as my winch is on the front.

As far as you cant winch anyway than forward,I have winched sideways with 1 snatch block on an old cruiser we had and I have also run a cable under a car to winch backward, a couple of logs under the car to protect the cable as much as possible and again 1 snatch block and it went backward.

As far as under water, I agree 100% and in the case of dead vehical and dead battery I also agree, I would want a Tirfor though I rarely go out on my own and if I do, I dont do too much of where I dont know what the track is normally like.

As far as weight goes and length of cable, as soon as my wire rope looks a bit crappy, I am going plasma and I will get atleast 40m on the drum and I understand I will have to clean it every now and then but I have to the cable as well and it is handles 4 times the load, les than 1/3 the weight and 1/2 the size and easilly repairable.

I would love to see you run plasma through a Tirfor as 50m cable would weigh more than my winch but then again you can place that weight any where you want in the vehical but then again, it's in your vehical and is a lot of weight to try to contain in an accident.

Each has +'s and -'s and you would be better buying a Tirfor first and then when you get tired of cranking it and replacing sheer pins you could then fit an electric winch and use the tirfor when nessesary.
2nd August 2007, 07:36 AM
disco2hse

Prices

OK. Finally found the cost of a new Tirfor. The winch (TU16 - 1600kg) is $1600, plus the cost of cable - they come separate - about $250 for 25m (depending on where you get it from).

Found a second hand Tirfor TU 16. They want $420 incl GST. The cable is knackered and needs to be replaced and the wwinch needs to be serviced. It has no handle either.

Equivalent pulling power with a Warn (forgot the model name) $1650, plus the cost of wiring, constructing a cradle to mount it and other ancillary installation costs - about another $500. There may be other costs like an additional battery and the wiring to link it, and probably a Piranha charging system.

The other issues about snatch blocks and other ropes are redundant since these are applicable in any event, hand or mounted winch.

Looking at an alternative to the Tirfor, which is a Wellculip. Mostly the same except the grip teeth are slightly different. $460 with 30m cable included and telescopic handle. It uses a steel pin instead of the hook.

About losing limbs to broken cables because vehicles slide off the track. That is not a problem with the winch but with the operator. It is true the risks are great, but I have looked at a number of mounted electric winches that provide very short remote switch cables (3m or less) and sitting inside in direct line with the shackle on the other end provides an equally good target. There is no reason that a protector cannot be used on the cable. For example:

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/im...007/08/425.jpg

and

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/im...007/08/426.jpg
2nd August 2007, 08:14 AM
camel_landy

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcrover

Tell that to the bloke that slipped his car off the side of the road on Mt Stirling about 8 years ago while winching it back onto the road with a Tirfor and when the cable went as the Patrol was being pulled from the front, back slid out and slackened the cable and then went backward down the hill, snapped the cable tight and took half his leg with it when it broke.

...and just imagine the mess he could have made if it was an electric winch?? ;)

Thing is... That's not a comment for the hand vs vehicle mounted debate. That's just stating how dangerious a recovery can be if it all goes wrong.

M

PS... If you're going plasma, just bear in mind the issue of melting the strands onto the drum if it all gets too hot.
2nd August 2007, 10:06 AM
DaveS3

Quote:

Originally Posted by camel_landy

...and just imagine the mess he could have made if it was an electric winch?? ;)

Thing is... That's not a comment for the hand vs vehicle mounted debate. That's just stating how dangerious a recovery can be if it all goes wrong.

M

PS... If you're going plasma, just bear in mind the issue of melting the strands onto the drum if it all gets too hot.

I think an electric you may not get the same injuies if all bystanders are far away as possible (or out of the 'danger zone' ect)
Then you have the driver who is semi protected in the vehicle with a in car control or the hand control through the vehicle.

At lease theres not a person standing right next to the tirfor operating it.

Anyway - RE prices go and look at ARB / Opposite Lock / TJM they all will have tirfor kits at ~$400 to $700.

For $1600 you could just go but a 2nd hand warn low mount winch and get it serviced.

Goodluck
Dave.
2nd August 2007, 10:32 AM
cartm58

well all good points made but no one seems to have asked how often you going to use the winch.

yeah everyone wants one, but how often do you actually use it.

when out with clubs or other 4wds, the quickest, easiest recovery is hooking up to another 4wd not a winch.

l started with a tirfor, progressed to warn electric winch and now l just have snatchum straps, chain and the tirfor

In 23 years plus of 4wd less than 5 occasions of actually having a need for a winch and all of those could have been done with another 4wd.

I would be spending the money on tyres and a diff lock rather than a winch but if you want a winch then get yourself a second tirfor or similar plenty.

We all like the boys gear hanging on the truck its like a pimp wearing bling bling the more you got hanging on ya the better you think you look.
2nd August 2007, 11:32 AM
disco2hse

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveS3

I think an electric you may not get the same injuies if all bystanders are far away as possible (or out of the 'danger zone' ect)
Then you have the driver who is semi protected in the vehicle with a in car control or the hand control through the vehicle.

At lease theres not a person standing right next to the tirfor operating it.

Again, a bystander is not an issue related to winch type, but the management of the operation. And, the risk of injury is greatly reduced with the correct application of dampers on the cable. That point is therefore redundant too, since the same applies equally to mounted and hand winches.

The increase in risk to the operator of a hand winch is only marginal since the strain they are likely to put onto the cable will be limited to their ability to pull the lever (i.e. they are less likely to over strain the cable). On the other hand, I have often seen electric winches break cables because they are insensitive to the strain they are under.

Take those points into account and the risk of injury from an electric winch is actually greater simply because it may be more probable that someone will be around when a cable breaks, given that they break more often. :p

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveS3

Anyway - RE prices go and look at ARB / Opposite Lock / TJM they all will have tirfor kits at ~$400 to $700.

For $1600 you could just go but a 2nd hand warn low mount winch and get it serviced.

Damn, you've got better eyes than me :( I can't see any Tirfor prices on their websites, although Opposite Lock has those Mean green things, but no pricing.

For $1600 I could buy the WellCulip hand winch, all the snatch blocks and ropes I might need and a ground anchor and still have cash to buy petrol ;)
2nd August 2007, 11:37 AM
jimbo110

Some of us DO ACTUALLY USE our winches. mine is $900 chinese one. I used mine on saturday night to pull a 70 series cruiser out of a rapidly rising river. Yes I could have used a turfor to pull him up the 4 meters from the river:

Park truck
Get turfor out of back of the truck
Get cable out of the back of the truck
unwind cable from holder
Thread cable through turfor
Untangle the knots in the cable now all over the ground
connect cable to the truck in the river
Move the turfor along the cable to the right place to attatch the hook on the turfor to my truck
Move the lever back and forth for 20 minutes and strain my guts out
Pull the truck to level ground and detatch turfor
Wind up the cable into the holder (after untangling 30m of cable all over the ground)
Put cable back in truck
Put turfor back in truck
Go to doctor for hernia operation

What did happen:

Park truck
Unlock winch
Walk down to truck, unspooling as we go
Plug in winch controler
Lock winch
Pull truck from river (with big smile on my face:p)
Unhook cruiser and spool in rest of winch rope
Unplug remote
Give **** to my mate in the cruiser the whole way home on the radio

And above all no hospital visit, saving $1,000s, or cruiser ending up out at sea with my mates family in it:(
2nd August 2007, 11:39 AM
disco2hse

Quote:

Originally Posted by cartm58

well all good points made but no one seems to have asked how often you going to use the winch.

yeah everyone wants one, but how often do you actually use it.

when out with clubs or other 4wds, the quickest, easiest recovery is hooking up to another 4wd not a winch.

l started with a tirfor, progressed to warn electric winch and now l just have snatchum straps, chain and the tirfor

In 23 years plus of 4wd less than 5 occasions of actually having a need for a winch and all of those could have been done with another 4wd.

I would be spending the money on tyres and a diff lock rather than a winch but if you want a winch then get yourself a second tirfor or similar plenty.

We all like the boys gear hanging on the truck its like a pimp wearing bling bling the more you got hanging on ya the better you think you look.

Ayup. Agreed there. Not my scene, otherwise I'd have bought into one of those Nishins, or something.

Actually the question was asked and I said I will not be going into competition stuff and I am not interested in building up a tuff truck. Generally, most of the running around will be with groups and some odd bits. The opportunity to get into the S Is type of thing is limited by our eco-govt (local and central) bureaucrats.

Someone might say, my 'hill' is bigger than yours and I use a biiig winch to mount it. But as someone pointed out, a hand winch will still get you there and the pleasure is greater both in getting there and on the return journey:twisted:

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